[P2P-F] [P2P-URBANISM WA] Postmodern / post-structuralist philosophers and P2P Urbanism

Tue Jul 12 14:08:32 CEST 2011

Dear Nikos,

any specific links to your critiques of these 2 people in particular?

Michel

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:21 AM, Nikos Salingaros <salingar at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm entering this debate late, and on an immediately personal note. As
> one of the workers in p2p urbanism, I do have a clear vision of what
> we are trying to do. Please note that I have criticized both Derrida
> and Deleuze in the harshest possible terms -- calling them
> intellectual impostors in several articles and books. So I'm not going
> to consider any positive influence of their thought on p2p urbanism.
> Of course this is my opinion.
>
> Best wishes,
> Nikos
>
> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 5:17 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Ken has a new book on the situationists, which you may want to check out,
> >
> > will be book of the week soon on the p2p blog,
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 3:17 AM, Geo Scripcariu <geo.scripcariu at gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks a lot Michel and Audun. Great suggestions to research further,
> >> excellent links! I read partly, some time ago, "The Society of the
> >> Spectacle" and I felt (avant la lettre, before embarking in this PhD,
> that)
> >> Debord is the kind of thinker that has a lot to do with my own
> >> interpretation of Open Source / P2P Urbanism.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Geo
> >>
> >> 2011/7/3 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >>>
> >>> Dear Ken,
> >>>
> >>> is your new book on the situationists dealing with this topic?
> >>>
> >>> Michel
> >>>
> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >>> From: Audun Engh <audun.engh at gmail.com>
> >>> Date: Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 2:17 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [P2P-URBANISM WA] Postmodern / post-structuralist
> >>> philosophers and P2P Urbanism
> >>> To: p2p-urbanism-world-atlas at googlegroups.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I suggest the french writer  Guy Debord - 1931 - 1994
> >>>
> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Debord ,
> >>>
> >>> and the Situationist International movement that he was part of. SI
> had
> >>> an important role in initiating the May 68 rebellion in Paris.
> >>>
> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situationist_International
> >>>
> >>> Guy Debord and other Siuatinists were among the first to criticise le
> >>> Corbusier and modernist planning, and hail the uncontrolable diversity
> of
> >>> historic  cities, from a radical, anti-authoritaran perspective.
> >>>
> >>> See for example "Nine Situationist  theses on traffic", from 1959,
> >>>
> >>> FULL TEXT BELOW
> >>>
> >>> -----
> >>>
> >>> Psychogeography was defined in 1955 by Guy Debord as "the study of the
> >>> precise laws and specific effects of the geographical environment,
> >>> consciously organized or not, on the emotions and behavior of
> individuals.
> >>>
> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogeography
> >>>
> >>> ------
> >>>
> >>> The Situationist City, book published 1999
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> http://books.google.com/books/about/The_situationist_city.html?id=lR_MiZPhT64C
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> Early Situationist critique of le Corbusier:
> >>> See page 157 of this book:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> http://books.google.no/books?id=bREQibN9i-sC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=guy+debord+corbusier&source=bl&ots=OpizpIvHm8&sig=Raiw0fhYgciq6B-xdBwl2GZ24lA&hl=no&ei=qVgQTrHtGoWcOsCawaML&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=guy%20debord%20corbusier&f=false
> >>>
> >>> ----
> >>>
> >>> Video:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vftL-hHPttQ
> >>>
> >>> Society of the Spectacle, part 1
> >>>
> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV6k_SKkHKQ&feature=related
> >>>
> >>> Parts 2 - 8, and other Situationist films,  - see the menu
> >>>
> >>> ----------
> >>>
> >>> Guy Debord
> >>>
> >>> Situationist Theses on Traffic (1959)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> http://theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Guy_Debord__Situationist_Theses_on_Traffic.html
> >>>
> >>> 1
> >>>
> >>> A mistake made by all the city planners is to consider the private
> >>> automobile (and its by-products, such as the motorcycle) as essentially
> a
> >>> means of transportation. In reality, it is the most notable material
> symbol
> >>> of the notion of happiness that developed capitalism tends to spread
> >>> throughout the society. The automobile is at the center of this general
> >>> propaganda, both as supreme good of an alienated life and as essential
> >>> product of the capitalist market: It is generally being said this year
> that
> >>> American economic prosperity is soon going to depend on the success of
> the
> >>> slogan “Two cars per family.”
> >>>
> >>> 2
> >>>
> >>> Commuting time, as Le Corbusier rightly noted, is a surplus labor which
> >>> correspondingly reduces the amount of “free” time.
> >>>
> >>> 3
> >>>
> >>> We must replace travel as an adjunct to work with travel as a pleasure.
> >>>
> >>> 4
> >>>
> >>> To want to redesign architecture to accord with the needs of the
> present
> >>> massive and parasitical existence of private automobiles reflects the
> most
> >>> unrealistic misapprehension of where the real problems lie. Instead,
> >>> architecture must be transformed to accord with the whole development
> of the
> >>> society, criticizing all the transitory values linked to obsolete forms
> of
> >>> social relationships (in the first rank of which is the family).
> >>>
> >>> 5
> >>>
> >>> Even if, during a transitional period, we temporarily accept a rigid
> >>> division between work zones and residence zones, we must at least
> envisage a
> >>> third sphere: that of life itself (the sphere of freedom and leisure —
> the
> >>> essence of life). Unitary urbanism acknowledges no boundaries; it aims
> to
> >>> form an integrated human milieu in which separations such as
> work/leisure or
> >>> public/private will finally be dissolved. But before this is possible,
> the
> >>> minimum action of unitary urbanism is to extend the terrain of play to
> all
> >>> desirable constructions. This terrain will be at the level of
> complexity of
> >>> an old city.
> >>>
> >>> 6
> >>>
> >>> It is not a matter of opposing the automobile as an evil in itself. It
> is
> >>> its extreme concentration in the cities that has led to the negation of
> its
> >>> function. Urbanism should certainly not ignore the automobile, but even
> less
> >>> should it accept it as its central theme. It should reckon on gradually
> >>> phasing it out. In any case, we can envision the banning of auto
> traffic
> >>> from the central areas of certain new complexes, as well as from a few
> old
> >>> cities.
> >>>
> >>> 7
> >>>
> >>> Those who believe that the automobile is eternal are not thinking, even
> >>> from a strictly technological standpoint, of other future forms of
> >>> transportation. For example, certain models of one-man helicopters
> currently
> >>> being tested by the US Army will probably have spread to the general
> public
> >>> within twenty years.
> >>>
> >>> 8
> >>>
> >>> The breaking up of the dialectic of the human milieu in favor of
> >>> automobiles (the projected freeways in Paris will entail the demolition
> of
> >>> thousands of houses and apartments although the housing crisis is
> >>> continually worsening) masks its irrationality under pseudopractical
> >>> justifications. But it is practically necessary only in the context of
> a
> >>> specific social set-up. Those who believe that the particulars of the
> >>> problem are permanent want in fact to believe in the permanence of the
> >>> present society.
> >>>
> >>> 9
> >>>
> >>> Revolutionary urbanists will not limit their concern to the circulation
> >>> of things, or to the circulation of human beings trapped in a world of
> >>> things. They will try to break these topological chains, paving the way
> with
> >>> their experiments for a human journey through authentic life.
> >>>
> >>> ----------------
> >>>
> >>> Audun Engh
> >>> INTBAU Scandinavia
> >>> www..intbau.org
> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>>
> >>> 2011/7/3 Geo Scripcariu <geo.scripcariu at gmail.com>
> >>>>
> >>>> Many thanks to Stefano and Michael for the very interesting comments
> >>>> along my question.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best,
> >>>>
> >>>> Geo
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2011/7/3 Michael Mehaffy <michael.mehaffy at gmail.com>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dear Geo et al.
> >>>>> I would point to Virilio as much more related to P2P urbanism, in
> >>>>> several respects. He points out the failures of technology and the
> role of
> >>>>> competition and conflict between people as a key dimension of
> urbanism --
> >>>>> and the converse of that is their cooperation, and the strategies
> they adopt
> >>>>> to mitigate conflicts.  (In his criticism of technology's unintended
> >>>>> consequences he is a bit more related to Ellul too if you know his
> work.)
> >>>>> Broadly speaking, and at the extreme risk of over-simplifying, I
> think
> >>>>> the structuralist project is finally recovering from a period that
> can best
> >>>>> be characterized as epistemological muddle, that rose up around the
> central
> >>>>> problem of meaning, and the false positivist expectations that
> language
> >>>>> could somehow arrive at a clear position outside of external meaning.
>  As is
> >>>>> implied by Godel and others, this was a misunderstanding of what
> language is
> >>>>> or how it really works. In this I think Whitehead especially (and
> Alexander,
> >>>>> who is essentially a Whiteheadean) point the way out of this Kantian
> muddle.
> >>>>>  (I won't name names, but would include some of the folks you
> mentioned!)
> >>>>> I am very interested in this topic and have been nibbling away at it
> >>>>> since grad school days.  Here is a paper I gave recently on it, if
> you're
> >>>>> interested.  At a conference with Nikos, as a matter of fact.  (I
> don't
> >>>>> dwell on the latter structuralists (or "post-structuralists" as they
> are
> >>>>> known more commonly in the States) but I think you will see the
> >>>>> implications....
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> http://athensdialogues.chs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/WebObjects/athensdialogues.woa/wa/dist?dis=47
> >>>>> Cheers, m
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Stefano Serafini
> >>>>> <stefanonikolaevic at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Dear Geo,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> it's hard to give an answer to such a question, yet I cannot see any
> >>>>>> relation between p2p urbanism and Derrida and Deleuze. All the other
> Authors
> >>>>>> you quoted can be in some way related. First of all, Foucault, then
> >>>>>> Baudrilard, and in a traditionally meant "political sense", Zizek. I
> don't
> >>>>>> know enough the thought of Leach. Would add Henri Lefebvre.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Nevertheles, at the first place I would put Christopher Alexander.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Stefano
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 2011/7/2 Geo Scripcariu <geo.scripcariu at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi All,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Which of the following philosophers have anything to do -- in your
> >>>>>>> opinion -- (and what) with P2P Urbanism?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 1. Baudrillard
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 2. Michel Foucault
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 3. Jacques Derrida
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 5. Gilles Deleuze
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 6. Slavoj Zizek
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 7. Neil Leach
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Best regards,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Geo Scripcariu
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Geo Scripcariu
> >>>>>>> PhD Student / Open Source Urbanism
> >>>>>>> UAUIM Bucharest
> >>>>>>> Mobil: +40745-09.61.91
> >>>>>>> Direct: +4031-401.29.42
> >>>>>>> Tel/Fax: +4021-410.54.15
> >>>>>>> E-mail: geo.scripcariu at gmail.com
> >>>>>>> Str.Sabinelor 123 Bl. 119 Suite 16
> >>>>>>> Bucuresti-5 050854 Romania
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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> >>>>>>> to register to the group
> >>>>>>> http://cityleft.blogspot.com/
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
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> >>>>>> to register to the group
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Michael Mehaffy
> >>>>> Visiting Faculty, ASU
> >>>>> NEW ADDRESS to July 1, '11:
> >>>>> 4630 S. Lakeshore Dr., #267
> >>>>> Tempe, AZ 85282
> >>>>> Permanent Address:
> >>>>> 333 S. State Street, Suite V-440
> >>>>> Lake Oswego, OR 97034
> >>>>> www.tectics.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
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> >>>>> to register to the group
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Geo Scripcariu
> >>>> PhD Student / Open Source Urbanism
> >>>> UAUIM Bucharest
> >>>> Mobil: +40745-09.61.91
> >>>> Direct: +4031-401.29.42
> >>>> Tel/Fax: +4021-410.54.15
> >>>> E-mail: geo.scripcariu at gmail.com
> >>>> Str.Sabinelor 123 Bl. 119 Suite 16
> >>>> Bucuresti-5 050854 Romania
> >>>>
> >>>> --
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> >>>
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