Dear Nikos,<br><br>any specific links to your critiques of these 2 people in particular?<br><br>Michel<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:21 AM, Nikos Salingaros <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:salingar@gmail.com">salingar@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Hello everyone,<br>
<br>
I'm entering this debate late, and on an immediately personal note. As<br>
one of the workers in p2p urbanism, I do have a clear vision of what<br>
we are trying to do. Please note that I have criticized both Derrida<br>
and Deleuze in the harshest possible terms -- calling them<br>
intellectual impostors in several articles and books. So I'm not going<br>
to consider any positive influence of their thought on p2p urbanism.<br>
Of course this is my opinion.<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
<font color="#888888">Nikos<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 5:17 AM, Michel Bauwens <<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Ken has a new book on the situationists, which you may want to check out,<br>
><br>
> will be book of the week soon on the p2p blog,<br>
><br>
> Michel<br>
><br>
> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 3:17 AM, Geo Scripcariu <<a href="mailto:geo.scripcariu@gmail.com">geo.scripcariu@gmail.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Thanks a lot Michel and Audun. Great suggestions to research further,<br>
>> excellent links! I read partly, some time ago, "The Society of the<br>
>> Spectacle" and I felt (avant la lettre, before embarking in this PhD, that)<br>
>> Debord is the kind of thinker that has a lot to do with my own<br>
>> interpretation of Open Source / P2P Urbanism.<br>
>><br>
>> Best,<br>
>><br>
>> Geo<br>
>><br>
>> 2011/7/3 Michel Bauwens <<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Dear Ken,<br>
>>><br>
>>> is your new book on the situationists dealing with this topic?<br>
>>><br>
>>> Michel<br>
>>><br>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
>>> From: Audun Engh <<a href="mailto:audun.engh@gmail.com">audun.engh@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> Date: Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 2:17 PM<br>
>>> Subject: Re: [P2P-URBANISM WA] Postmodern / post-structuralist<br>
>>> philosophers and P2P Urbanism<br>
>>> To: <a href="mailto:p2p-urbanism-world-atlas@googlegroups.com">p2p-urbanism-world-atlas@googlegroups.com</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> I suggest the french writer� Guy Debord - 1931 - 1994<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Debord" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Debord</a> ,<br>
>>><br>
>>> and the Situationist International movement that he was part of. SI� had<br>
>>> an important role in initiating the May 68 rebellion in Paris.<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situationist_International" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situationist_International</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> Guy Debord and other Siuatinists were among the first to criticise le<br>
>>> Corbusier and modernist planning, and hail the uncontrolable diversity of<br>
>>> historic� cities, from a radical, anti-authoritaran perspective.<br>
>>><br>
>>> See for example "Nine Situationist� theses on traffic", from 1959,<br>
>>><br>
>>> FULL TEXT BELOW<br>
>>><br>
>>> -----<br>
>>><br>
>>> Psychogeography was defined in 1955 by Guy Debord as "the study of the<br>
>>> precise laws and specific effects of the geographical environment,<br>
>>> consciously organized or not, on the emotions and behavior of individuals.<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogeography" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogeography</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> ------<br>
>>><br>
>>> The Situationist City, book published 1999<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://books.google.com/books/about/The_situationist_city.html?id=lR_MiZPhT64C" target="_blank">http://books.google.com/books/about/The_situationist_city.html?id=lR_MiZPhT64C</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> --<br>
>>><br>
>>> Early Situationist critique of le Corbusier:<br>
>>> See page 157 of this book:<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://books.google.no/books?id=bREQibN9i-sC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=guy+debord+corbusier&source=bl&ots=OpizpIvHm8&sig=Raiw0fhYgciq6B-xdBwl2GZ24lA&hl=no&ei=qVgQTrHtGoWcOsCawaML&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=guy%20debord%20corbusier&f=false" target="_blank">http://books.google.no/books?id=bREQibN9i-sC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=guy+debord+corbusier&source=bl&ots=OpizpIvHm8&sig=Raiw0fhYgciq6B-xdBwl2GZ24lA&hl=no&ei=qVgQTrHtGoWcOsCawaML&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=guy%20debord%20corbusier&f=false</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> ----<br>
>>><br>
>>> Video:<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vftL-hHPttQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vftL-hHPttQ</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> Society of the Spectacle, part 1<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV6k_SKkHKQ&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV6k_SKkHKQ&feature=related</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> Parts 2 - 8, and other Situationist films,� - see the menu<br>
>>><br>
>>> ----------<br>
>>><br>
>>> Guy Debord<br>
>>><br>
>>> Situationist Theses on Traffic (1959)<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="http://theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Guy_Debord__Situationist_Theses_on_Traffic.html" target="_blank">http://theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Guy_Debord__Situationist_Theses_on_Traffic.html</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> 1<br>
>>><br>
>>> A mistake made by all the city planners is to consider the private<br>
>>> automobile (and its by-products, such as the motorcycle) as essentially a<br>
>>> means of transportation. In reality, it is the most notable material symbol<br>
>>> of the notion of happiness that developed capitalism tends to spread<br>
>>> throughout the society. The automobile is at the center of this general<br>
>>> propaganda, both as supreme good of an alienated life and as essential<br>
>>> product of the capitalist market: It is generally being said this year that<br>
>>> American economic prosperity is soon going to depend on the success of the<br>
>>> slogan �Two cars per family.�<br>
>>><br>
>>> 2<br>
>>><br>
>>> Commuting time, as Le Corbusier rightly noted, is a surplus labor which<br>
>>> correspondingly reduces the amount of �free� time.<br>
>>><br>
>>> 3<br>
>>><br>
>>> We must replace travel as an adjunct to work with travel as a pleasure.<br>
>>><br>
>>> 4<br>
>>><br>
>>> To want to redesign architecture to accord with the needs of the present<br>
>>> massive and parasitical existence of private automobiles reflects the most<br>
>>> unrealistic misapprehension of where the real problems lie. Instead,<br>
>>> architecture must be transformed to accord with the whole development of the<br>
>>> society, criticizing all the transitory values linked to obsolete forms of<br>
>>> social relationships (in the first rank of which is the family).<br>
>>><br>
>>> 5<br>
>>><br>
>>> Even if, during a transitional period, we temporarily accept a rigid<br>
>>> division between work zones and residence zones, we must at least envisage a<br>
>>> third sphere: that of life itself (the sphere of freedom and leisure � the<br>
>>> essence of life). Unitary urbanism acknowledges no boundaries; it aims to<br>
>>> form an integrated human milieu in which separations such as work/leisure or<br>
>>> public/private will finally be dissolved. But before this is possible, the<br>
>>> minimum action of unitary urbanism is to extend the terrain of play to all<br>
>>> desirable constructions. This terrain will be at the level of complexity of<br>
>>> an old city.<br>
>>><br>
>>> 6<br>
>>><br>
>>> It is not a matter of opposing the automobile as an evil in itself. It is<br>
>>> its extreme concentration in the cities that has led to the negation of its<br>
>>> function. Urbanism should certainly not ignore the automobile, but even less<br>
>>> should it accept it as its central theme. It should reckon on gradually<br>
>>> phasing it out. In any case, we can envision the banning of auto traffic<br>
>>> from the central areas of certain new complexes, as well as from a few old<br>
>>> cities.<br>
>>><br>
>>> 7<br>
>>><br>
>>> Those who believe that the automobile is eternal are not thinking, even<br>
>>> from a strictly technological standpoint, of other future forms of<br>
>>> transportation. For example, certain models of one-man helicopters currently<br>
>>> being tested by the US Army will probably have spread to the general public<br>
>>> within twenty years.<br>
>>><br>
>>> 8<br>
>>><br>
>>> The breaking up of the dialectic of the human milieu in favor of<br>
>>> automobiles (the projected freeways in Paris will entail the demolition of<br>
>>> thousands of houses and apartments although the housing crisis is<br>
>>> continually worsening) masks its irrationality under pseudopractical<br>
>>> justifications. But it is practically necessary only in the context of a<br>
>>> specific social set-up. Those who believe that the particulars of the<br>
>>> problem are permanent want in fact to believe in the permanence of the<br>
>>> present society.<br>
>>><br>
>>> 9<br>
>>><br>
>>> Revolutionary urbanists will not limit their concern to the circulation<br>
>>> of things, or to the circulation of human beings trapped in a world of<br>
>>> things. They will try to break these topological chains, paving the way with<br>
>>> their experiments for a human journey through authentic life.<br>
>>><br>
>>> ----------------<br>
>>><br>
>>> Audun Engh<br>
>>> INTBAU Scandinavia<br>
>>> www..<a href="http://intbau.org" target="_blank">intbau.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> ---<br>
>>><br>
>>> 2011/7/3 Geo Scripcariu <<a href="mailto:geo.scripcariu@gmail.com">geo.scripcariu@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Many thanks to Stefano and Michael for the very interesting comments<br>
>>>> along my question.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Best,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Geo<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 2011/7/3 Michael Mehaffy <<a href="mailto:michael.mehaffy@gmail.com">michael.mehaffy@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Dear Geo et al.<br>
>>>>> I would point to Virilio as much more related to P2P urbanism, in<br>
>>>>> several respects. He points out the failures of technology and the role of<br>
>>>>> competition and conflict between people as a key dimension of urbanism --<br>
>>>>> and the converse of that is their cooperation, and the strategies they adopt<br>
>>>>> to mitigate conflicts. �(In his criticism of technology's unintended<br>
>>>>> consequences he is a bit more related to Ellul too if you know his work.)<br>
>>>>> Broadly speaking, and at the extreme risk of over-simplifying, I think<br>
>>>>> the structuralist project is finally recovering from a period that can best<br>
>>>>> be characterized as epistemological muddle, that rose up around the central<br>
>>>>> problem of meaning, and the false positivist expectations that language<br>
>>>>> could somehow arrive at a clear position outside of external meaning. �As is<br>
>>>>> implied by Godel and others, this was a misunderstanding of what language is<br>
>>>>> or how it really works. In this I think Whitehead especially (and Alexander,<br>
>>>>> who is essentially a Whiteheadean) point the way out of this Kantian muddle.<br>
>>>>> �(I won't name names, but would include some of the folks you mentioned!)<br>
>>>>> I am very interested in this topic and have been nibbling away at it<br>
>>>>> since grad school days. �Here is a paper I gave recently on it, if you're<br>
>>>>> interested. �At a conference with Nikos, as a matter of fact. �(I don't<br>
>>>>> dwell on the latter structuralists (or "post-structuralists" as they are<br>
>>>>> known more commonly in the States) but I think you will see the<br>
>>>>> implications....<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> <a href="http://athensdialogues.chs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/WebObjects/athensdialogues.woa/wa/dist?dis=47" target="_blank">http://athensdialogues.chs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/WebObjects/athensdialogues.woa/wa/dist?dis=47</a><br>
>>>>> Cheers, m<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Stefano Serafini<br>
>>>>> <<a href="mailto:stefanonikolaevic@gmail.com">stefanonikolaevic@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Dear Geo,<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> it's hard to give an answer to such a question, yet I cannot see any<br>
>>>>>> relation between p2p urbanism and Derrida and Deleuze. All the other Authors<br>
>>>>>> you quoted can be in some way related. First of all, Foucault, then<br>
>>>>>> Baudrilard, and in a traditionally meant "political sense", Zizek. I don't<br>
>>>>>> know enough the thought of Leach. Would add Henri Lefebvre.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Nevertheles, at the first place I would put Christopher Alexander.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Best,<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Stefano<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> 2011/7/2 Geo Scripcariu <<a href="mailto:geo.scripcariu@gmail.com">geo.scripcariu@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Hi All,<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Which of the following philosophers have anything to do -- in your<br>
>>>>>>> opinion -- (and what) with P2P Urbanism?<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> 1. Baudrillard<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> 2. Michel Foucault<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> 3. Jacques Derrida<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> 5. Gilles Deleuze<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> 6. Slavoj Zizek<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> 7. Neil Leach<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Best regards,<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Geo Scripcariu<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> --<br>
>>>>>>> Geo Scripcariu<br>
>>>>>>> PhD Student / Open Source Urbanism<br>
>>>>>>> UAUIM Bucharest<br>
>>>>>>> Mobil: +40745-09.61.91<br>
>>>>>>> Direct: +4031-401.29.42<br>
>>>>>>> Tel/Fax: +4021-410.54.15<br>
>>>>>>> E-mail: <a href="mailto:geo.scripcariu@gmail.com">geo.scripcariu@gmail.com</a><br>
>>>>>>> Str.Sabinelor 123 Bl. 119 Suite 16<br>
>>>>>>> Bucuresti-5 050854 Romania<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> --<br>
>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the<br>
>>>>>>> "P2P-Urbanism World Atlas" group.<br>
>>>>>>> to register to the group<br>
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>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to<br>
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>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at<br>
>>>>>>> <a href="http://groups.google.com/group/p2p-urbanism-world-atlas?hl=en" target="_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/p2p-urbanism-world-atlas?hl=en</a><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> --<br>
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the<br>
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>>>>>> to register to the group<br>
>>>>>> <a href="http://cityleft.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://cityleft.blogspot.com/</a><br>
>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to<br>
>>>>>> <a href="mailto:p2p-urbanism-world-atlas@googlegroups.com">p2p-urbanism-world-atlas@googlegroups.com</a><br>
>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at<br>
>>>>>> <a href="http://groups.google.com/group/p2p-urbanism-world-atlas?hl=en" target="_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/p2p-urbanism-world-atlas?hl=en</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> --<br>
>>>>> Michael Mehaffy<br>
>>>>> Visiting Faculty, ASU<br>
>>>>> NEW ADDRESS�to July 1, '11:<br>
>>>>> 4630 S. Lakeshore Dr., #267<br>
>>>>> Tempe, AZ 85282<br>
>>>>> Permanent Address:<br>
>>>>> 333 S. State Street, Suite V-440<br>
>>>>> Lake Oswego, OR 97034<br>
>>>>> <a href="http://www.tectics.com" target="_blank">www.tectics.com</a><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> --<br>
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the<br>
>>>>> "P2P-Urbanism World Atlas" group.<br>
>>>>> to register to the group<br>
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>>>>> To post to this group, send email to<br>
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>>>>> <a href="http://groups.google.com/group/p2p-urbanism-world-atlas?hl=en" target="_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/p2p-urbanism-world-atlas?hl=en</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> --<br>
>>>> Geo Scripcariu<br>
>>>> PhD Student / Open Source Urbanism<br>
>>>> UAUIM Bucharest<br>
>>>> Mobil: +40745-09.61.91<br>
>>>> Direct: +4031-401.29.42<br>
>>>> Tel/Fax: +4021-410.54.15<br>
>>>> E-mail: <a href="mailto:geo.scripcariu@gmail.com">geo.scripcariu@gmail.com</a><br>
>>>> Str.Sabinelor 123 Bl. 119 Suite 16<br>
>>>> Bucuresti-5 050854 Romania<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> --<br>
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>>><br>
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>>><br>
>>> --<br>
>>> P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>� - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>
>>><br>
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To post to this group, send email to<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>� - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br>
<br>Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss: <a href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
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