[P2P-F] zeitgeist, what to watch

Fri Jan 21 16:14:35 CET 2011

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> robin, you writre:
>
>> I really wish the guy had done a course on the roal of "unifying"
>> ideologies in world history before commencing his movies, and how not
>> to base these in so-called fundamentals or rules you find in nature.
>> Because you can find any rule, which will support whatever you want to
>> believe in "life" and in "nature".
>
> well, that is the old concept of dharma, the tao etc... which traditional
> societies believed, but they were also mostly sustainable (not always
> locally, but at least could not endanger the whole planet)

Yes, which sums up my point. "The" Tao can be used by different
political philosophies from social to individual anarchism,
laissez-faire economics, (neo-)liberalism, social-democracy, etc. And
in Dharma, there can be very rigid forms of hierarchy.

Thus, any "rule of nature" can be manipulated to serve your own
world-view. For good and for worse.

> so there is something to be said for an approach that recognizes the logic
> of life and nature, on which society and mind depends,

Maybe. But definitely not if you create an ideology out of that which
you then enforce onto others (which is the case with most ideologies).
Also nazism is based on a certain logic of life and nature. May be a
bad logic and scientifically incorrect but still it is based around a
conception of "fundamentals" of nature and life, and for many these
were not even "unscientific" in those days.

And also Buddhist have been staging war
http://www.google.com/search?q=Buddhism+and+violence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Buddhism

>
> the question is, is this possible not as a belief and preconceived
> philosophical system, but as some kind of science, like the
> biophilic/scientific approach to urbanism, as proposed by say Nikos
> Salingaros,

Yeah, why not. As long as the rules of the game are open-source, there
is trial-and-error in place and we are free to adapt ;-)

By the way, wasn't there a discussion once on this list on the
adaptibility of human nature and how this cannot be seen as a "fixed
constant" but something that changes due to ethical, social, and
political praxis (economic and religious being part of that) ?

That's an interesting point since all(?) ideologies are based on a
specific conceptualisation of human nature which in their turn, as far
as I am aware, are more or less fixed constants/ given facts.

I would like to know if there is any scholar that based its work
around that idea, since it might also be the one that is closest to a
p2p ideology in my point of view.

Wow, we really went off-topic here, or maybe not even so :)

Thanks.

>
> Michel
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 7:33 PM, robin <robokow at gmail.com> wrote:

>> And I just read this quote by Peter Joseph himself:
>> "The Zeitgeist Movement is a grass roots campaign to unify the world
>> through a common ideology based on the fundamentals of life and
>> nature. "
>>
>> I really wish the guy had done a course on the roal of "unifying"
>> ideologies in world history before commencing his movies, and how not
>> to base these in so-called fundamentals or rules you find in nature.
>> Because you can find any rule, which will support whatever you want to
>> believe in "life" and in "nature".
>>
>> Or maybe he did follow a course and he is involved in a conspiracy to
>> take over the world ;)