[P2P-F] Bitcoin donation

Michel Bauwens michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Fri Jan 21 13:58:12 CET 2011 

Interesting!

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 7:48 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 6:14 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ok, I get it, so there are people out there actually wanting to 'buy'
> > bitcoins, and I wasn't aware of that, and obviously, this needs to be
> bought
> > and expressed by another existing currency, hence the 'value'
> >
>
> Yes, from what I can tell, *now* the best way to get bitcoins is to
> buy them. However, it seems based on reading online discussions that
> in the earliest days of bitcoin activity, that it was a bit easier to
> contribute your personal computer power to the network and "generate"
> coins. Now, it the calculations are over a year for a typical laptop
> (ref: http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php )
>
> A whole history of trading can be  viewed here:
> https://mtgox.com/trade/history
>
> Again, I think there is only one real issue with bitcoin: that it is a
> homogenous currency. I am looking at the idea of soliciting donations
> towards extending bitcoin software so that users may either issue new
> currency (with new rules), or participate in existing currencies all
> from the same protocol/software.
>
>
> > I 'got' it <g>
> >
> > By the way, alt.currency/credit commons expert Thomas Greco is in Chiang
> > Mai!
> >
> >
> > Michel
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Sepp Hasslberger <sepp at lastrega.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Basically Michel, the value of any commodity is determined by whether
> >> people believe it is of value.
> >> The fact that you can buy and sell something establishes a base-line
> value
> >> for it. The value is a balance between how much of the stuff is
> available,
> >> and how much demand there is for it from potential buyers. Economists
> called
> >> it the law of supply and demand.
> >> In the case of bitcoin, we are looking at a commodity (exchangeable
> >> electronic "coins") that is scarce - there are only so many coins in
> >> existence, and making more of them is a slow, difficult prcess - and for
> >> which there is a demand. People are looking around for some kind of
> means of
> >> exchange that can de-link them from the official currencies.
> Potentially, we
> >> have a great demand for bitcoins ... if the idea of using them as a
> means of
> >> payment ever really catches on. Even as it is, there is enough of a
> demand
> >> for bitcoins to "feel their scarcity", and thus, to make them valuable.
> A
> >> price is being set for bitcoins in exchange services. The price is
> entirely
> >> dependent on how badly people want bitcoins, and it seems that the price
> is
> >> on the upswing.
> >> This is really the same mechanism as with any kind of money. As long as
> >> there are people who want to use it to conduct their business (or to put
> >> away for future use), and as long as there is a restricted amount of it,
> >> money can be said to have value.
> >> The value of any commodity or any kind of money will go up if 1) more
> >> people want it or 2) some of it is destroyed or withdrawn from
> circulation,
> >> making it more scarce.
> >> Similarly, the value of any commodity or any kind of money will go down
> if
> >> 1) less people want it or 2) more of it is put into circulation, making
> it
> >> comparatively more abundant.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> That is the mechanism that determines the value of money - ANY kind of
> >> money.
> >> Sepp
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition"
> >> http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/
> >> http://www.laleva.org
> >> http://blog.hasslberger.com/
> >> http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger
> >> http://twitter.com/healthsupreme
> >> .
> >> On Jan 19, 2011, at 2:19 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
> >>
> >> there are still basic aspects of bitcoin I don't understand
> >>
> >> how can a self-invented coin have any value at all,
> >>
> >> who determines that value?
> >>
> >> what makes people accept that it has the value it says
> >>
> >> which bank is willing to give me other types of money in exchange for
> that
> >> value?
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Sepp Hasslberger <sepp at lastrega.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> > Although I have misgivings about the stability of bitcoin, I support
> >>> > its
> >>> > use. (It's the only thing out there that is completely de-linked from
> >>> > official currencies and from things like precious metals, that is
> >>> > workable
> >>> > for more than just local exchange).
> >>> > To explain my perplexity on bitcoin stability, I quote from the site
> >>> > cyclonite linked:
> >>> > "How much is a Bitcoin worth?
> >>> >
> >>> > More all the time...
> >>> >
> >>> > As you can see, over a 4 week period, recently...
> >>> >
> >>> > The value of  ฿1.00 BTC (one Bitcoin), went from  US$0.06  to
> >>> >  US$0.50  ...within only about 4 weeks.   Yes...   That was an 833%
> >>> > increase
> >>> > in it's value.   Wow."
> >>> > (http://www.bitcoinme.com/)
> >>> > For me, a currency that is to be widely used, should be stable.
> Stable
> >>> > means
> >>> > it doesn't go down in value, but it also doesn't go up in value
> >>> > excessively.
> >>> > It should be roughly keeping its value. Going up as much as bitcoin
> >>> > evidently does, is a form of instability that will bring disturbance
> to
> >>> > a
> >>> > marketplace using bitcoin as its means of exchange.
> >>>
> >>> bitcoin does seem to have stabilized after that initial jump. I think
> >>> the initial jump was due to the network effect of how fast the current
> >>> group of adopters jumped on board and started using bitcoin.
> >>>
> >>> Still, this is a of course a valid point. Although, the value increase
> >>> seems to have been mostly beneficial to the early adopters. But, I
> >>> could see how if the system stabilized, then a new wave of adopters
> >>> jumped on board, it could suddenly become very unbalanced for the
> >>> initial participants if various scenarios unfold.
> >>>
> >>> Although, I am not sure *if* the bitcoin system would automatically
> >>> inflate in an exponential way each time a new wave of participants
> >>> joins the system.
> >>>
> >>> One real potential problem is making sure that "honest nodes" control
> >>> the majority of CPU power. So far, so good. It won't be easy for
> >>> anyone to spoof this system. But, if a group of people wants to
> >>> intentionally attack the system, there could be problems. Bitcoin is a
> >>> good candidate for complex systems models as a means to put more
> >>> foresight into stability, health, etc
> >>>
> >>> > This instability could and should be remedied by adjusting the target
> >>> > total
> >>> > of bitcoin creation with an algorithm that takes into account the
> >>> > number of
> >>> > active bitcoin users. As the number of users increases, the total
> >>> > target
> >>> > amount of bitcoins to be created (which currently is fixed at
> >>> > 21,000,000)
> >>> > should increase, slowly creeping up to accomodate the demand of new
> >>> > users
> >>> > for bitcoins, in a way to keep the value of one single coin roughly
> >>> > stable.
> >>> > I do not know whether the creators of bitcoin would be willing to do
> >>> > this.
> >>> > For me, such an adjustment will be necessary to take bitcoin from
> >>> > experimental status to widely-used alternative means of payment
> status.
> >>>
> >>> Sepp, this is a great point.
> >>>
> >>> One of the nice things about bitcoin is that it is F/LOSS, so it is
> >>> ultimately fork-able. If bad decisions are made about the growth, the
> >>> project could be forked, a different governance scheme could be
> >>> implemented, etc.
> >>>
> >>> I don't yet know enough about bitcoin to be 100% sure, but the system
> >>> at least for the time being does seem to have stabilized (it could
> >>> simply mean that participation has stabilized).
> >>>
> >>> Bit coin claims:
> >>>
> >>> "Once a predetermined number of coins have entered
> >>> circulation, the incentive can transition entirely to transaction fees
> >>> and be completely inflation
> >>> free."
> >>>
> >>> And yes Michel, I will post this on the blog and in wiki :)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > Kind regards
> >>> > Sepp
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Jan 17, 2011, at 4:44 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > Cyclonite, personally I am ready to work with bitcoin today, although
> >>> > the rest of p2pf may not be, which I'll respect
> >>> >
> >>> > On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Cyclonite <cyclonite at safe-mail.net>
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > Hi Guys,
> >>> >
> >>> > I think there is some kind of misunderstanding here, you do not need
> to
> >>> > manually generate any kind of public/private keys as with OpenPGP.
> >>> >
> >>> > You can even sign up in a website as mybitcoin.com and start making
> or
> >>> > receiving donations.
> >>> >
> >>> > In my opinion the best available info for beginners is
> >>> > http://bitcoinme.com.
> >>> > Please take a look and you will get your doubts clear.
> >>> >
> >>> > Best regards,
> >>> >
> >>> > Cyclonite.
> >>> >
> >>> > --
> >>> >
> >>> > Secure Email contact: https://privacybox.de/cyclonite.msg
> >>> >
> >>> > Bitcoin donations jar: 16FVZweaaJLvhAy91oDugqaf84kXiDJ9PG
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > -------- Original Message --------
> >>> >
> >>> > From: Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
> >>> >
> >>> > To: james burke <lifesized at gmail.com>
> >>> >
> >>> > Cc: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>,
> cyclonite at safe-mail.net,
> >>> > p2p-foundation <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>, Sepp
> Hasslberger
> >>> > <sepp at lastrega.com>, Georg Pleger <g.pleger at yahoo.de>
> >>> >
> >>> > Subject: Re: Bitcoin donation
> >>> >
> >>> > Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 09:30:23 -0500
> >>> >
> >>> > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:54 AM, james burke <lifesized at gmail.com>
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > Hi Michel,
> >>> >
> >>> > Yes, I do have a public key, but yet again,
> >>> >
> >>> > another nice idea with terrible interaction design and userbility
> >>> >
> >>> > - most people have no clue about public private keys, so this keeps
> it
> >>> > a
> >>> >
> >>> > geek thing
> >>> >
> >>> > I agree, although as far as I can see, the application at least takes
> >>> >
> >>> > care of this for the user. Still, your point is valid in that some
> >>> >
> >>> > people may not understand what is happening.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > Most of the users of bitcoin now are early adopters, however. So, if
> >>> >
> >>> > p2pf did support donation via bitcoin, it would be joining an ecology
> >>> >
> >>> > of early adopters, and would likely only receive donation from those
> >>> >
> >>> > early adopters.
> >>> >
> >>> > - the actual app upon launch is unclear. Where to click, what to
> >>> > do,gah!
> >>> >
> >>> > I can't really support this even if it is a p2p solution.
> >>> >
> >>> > James
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > Seems reasonable. If p2pf changes it's mind, I'm willing to
> >>> >
> >>> > participate in any experiments with bitcoin
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:57 AM, Michel Bauwens
> >>> > <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >>> >
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > James,
> >>> >
> >>> > do you have a public key?
> >>> >
> >>> > Michel
> >>> >
> >>> > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com
> >
> >>> >
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > This is a p2p application, so we would need to post your's or James's
> >>> >
> >>> > public key, and people who want to donate bitcoins would need then
> >>> >
> >>> > send you the bitcoins by downloading the bitcoin application and
> >>> >
> >>> > sending it to you
> >>> >
> >>> > quote:
> >>> >
> >>> > "Bitcoin utilizes public/private key digital signatures (ECDSA). A
> >>> >
> >>> > coin has its owner's public key on it. When a coin is transferred
> from
> >>> >
> >>> > user A to user B, A adds B’s public key to the coin and signs it with
> >>> >
> >>> > his own private key. Now B owns the coin and can transfer it further.
> >>> >
> >>> > To prevent A from transferring the already used coin to another user
> >>> >
> >>> > C, a public list of all the previous transactions is collectively
> >>> >
> >>> > maintained by the network of Bitcoin nodes, and before each
> >>> >
> >>> > transaction the coin’s unusedness will be checked."
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Michel Bauwens
> >>> >
> >>> > <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > Sam, can you help us install it on the wiki and blog?
> >>> >
> >>> > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com
> >
> >>> >
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > I've downloaded and installed and am game to try with p2pf network
> >>> >
> >>> > folks.
> >>> >
> >>> > This could actually be really useful for lots of local economy
> efforts
> >>> >
> >>> > too.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 5:32 AM, Michel Bauwens
> >>> >
> >>> > <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
> >>> >
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > Dear,
> >>> >
> >>> > thanks a lot for this email,
> >>> >
> >>> > it seems that it is worthwhile for us to experiment with this, but I
> >>> >
> >>> > will
> >>> >
> >>> > forward this to James Burke for possible implementation
> >>> >
> >>> > James, I think we should do this, what do  you think?
> >>> >
> >>> > Michel
> >>> >
> >>> > On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:42 PM, <cyclonite at safe-mail.net> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >>> >
> >>> > Hash: SHA1
> >>> >
> >>> > Dear friends,
> >>> >
> >>> > I have been looking in your site for any reference to Bitcoin for
> >>> >
> >>> > making a
> >>> >
> >>> > small donation.
> >>> >
> >>> > As  you  probably  know,  Bitcoin  (bitcoin.org)  is  a  new kind
> >>> >
> >>> > of a
> >>> >
> >>> > P2P
> >>> >
> >>> > crypto-currency in which the general public can  make donations,
> >>> >
> >>> > macro
> >>> >
> >>> >  or
> >>> >
> >>> > micropayments   in  a  secure  and   anonymous  way  usually
> >>> >
> >>> >  without
> >>> >
> >>> >  any
> >>> >
> >>> > transaction fee involved.
> >>> >
> >>> > You can change Bitcoins for real money (eg: https://mtgox.com) or
> >>> >
> >>> > purchase
> >>> >
> >>> > services or goods in an increasing number of sites.
> >>> >
> >>> > In  order to  receive  donations you  only have  to  publish  one
> >>> >
> >>> >  of
> >>> >
> >>> > your
> >>> >
> >>> > accounts  as generated  by the  bitcoin client  or any specialized
> >>> >
> >>> > bitcoin
> >>> >
> >>> > trader (eg: mybitcoin.com).
> >>> >
> >>> > Currently  some   projects  as  www.i2p2.de,
> >>> >
> >>> >  www.torrentservers.net
> >>> >
> >>> > and
> >>> >
> >>> > organizations like the EFF are accepting donations.
> >>> >
> >>> > In  my  opinion  this  kind  of decentralized solution without the
> >>> >
> >>> > need
> >>> >
> >>> > to
> >>> >
> >>> > trust  any  middlemen  is much better than  Paypal, Visa or
> >>> >
> >>> > Mastercard
> >>> >
> >>> > for
> >>> >
> >>> > security-minded people as most of your donors are.
> >>> >
> >>> > If  you  are  interested in  pushing  Bitcoin forward,  do not
> >>> >
> >>> > hesitate
> >>> >
> >>> > to
> >>> >
> >>> > contact me if you have any doubt.
> >>> >
> >>> > Yours,
> >>> >
> >>> > Cyclonite
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> --
> >>> Sam Rose
> >>> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
> >>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> >>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> >>> skype: samuelrose
> >>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> >>> http://forwardfound.org
> >>> http://futureforwardinstitute.org
> >>> http://hollymeadcapital.com
> >>> http://p2pfoundation.net
> >>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
> >>>
> >>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> >>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >>
> >> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> >> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >>
> >> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> >> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >>
> >> Think tank:
> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> > http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
> >
> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >
> > Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Sam Rose
> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://forwardfound.org
> http://futureforwardinstitute.org
> http://hollymeadcapital.com
> http://p2pfoundation.net
> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>
> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>



-- 
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
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Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
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