[P2P-F] Bitcoin donation

Sat Jan 22 17:28:05 CET 2011

yep
as this post discusses

http://forwardfound.org/blog/?q=sustainable-monetary-systems

requisite diversity is required for sustainability

-p

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 7:48 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 6:14 AM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ok, I get it, so there are people out there actually wanting to 'buy'
>> bitcoins, and I wasn't aware of that, and obviously, this needs to be bought
>> and expressed by another existing currency, hence the 'value'
>>
>
> Yes, from what I can tell, *now* the best way to get bitcoins is to
> buy them. However, it seems based on reading online discussions that
> in the earliest days of bitcoin activity, that it was a bit easier to
> contribute your personal computer power to the network and "generate"
> coins. Now, it the calculations are over a year for a typical laptop
> (ref: http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php )
>
> A whole history of trading can be  viewed here: https://mtgox.com/trade/history
>
> Again, I think there is only one real issue with bitcoin: that it is a
> homogenous currency. I am looking at the idea of soliciting donations
> towards extending bitcoin software so that users may either issue new
> currency (with new rules), or participate in existing currencies all
> from the same protocol/software.
>
>
>> I 'got' it <g>
>>
>> By the way, alt.currency/credit commons expert Thomas Greco is in Chiang
>> Mai!
>>
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Sepp Hasslberger <sepp at lastrega.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Basically Michel, the value of any commodity is determined by whether
>>> people believe it is of value.
>>> The fact that you can buy and sell something establishes a base-line value
>>> for it. The value is a balance between how much of the stuff is available,
>>> and how much demand there is for it from potential buyers. Economists called
>>> it the law of supply and demand.
>>> In the case of bitcoin, we are looking at a commodity (exchangeable
>>> electronic "coins") that is scarce - there are only so many coins in
>>> existence, and making more of them is a slow, difficult prcess - and for
>>> which there is a demand. People are looking around for some kind of means of
>>> exchange that can de-link them from the official currencies. Potentially, we
>>> have a great demand for bitcoins ... if the idea of using them as a means of
>>> payment ever really catches on. Even as it is, there is enough of a demand
>>> for bitcoins to "feel their scarcity", and thus, to make them valuable. A
>>> price is being set for bitcoins in exchange services. The price is entirely
>>> dependent on how badly people want bitcoins, and it seems that the price is
>>> on the upswing.
>>> This is really the same mechanism as with any kind of money. As long as
>>> there are people who want to use it to conduct their business (or to put
>>> away for future use), and as long as there is a restricted amount of it,
>>> money can be said to have value.
>>> The value of any commodity or any kind of money will go up if 1) more
>>> people want it or 2) some of it is destroyed or withdrawn from circulation,
>>> making it more scarce.
>>> Similarly, the value of any commodity or any kind of money will go down if
>>> 1) less people want it or 2) more of it is put into circulation, making it
>>> comparatively more abundant.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> That is the mechanism that determines the value of money - ANY kind of
>>> money.
>>> Sepp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition"
>>> http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/
>>> http://www.laleva.org
>>> http://blog.hasslberger.com/
>>> http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger
>>> http://twitter.com/healthsupreme
>>> .
>>> On Jan 19, 2011, at 2:19 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>>
>>> there are still basic aspects of bitcoin I don't understand
>>>
>>> how can a self-invented coin have any value at all,
>>>
>>> who determines that value?
>>>
>>> what makes people accept that it has the value it says
>>>
>>> which bank is willing to give me other types of money in exchange for that
>>> value?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Sepp Hasslberger <sepp at lastrega.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > Although I have misgivings about the stability of bitcoin, I support
>>>> > its
>>>> > use. (It's the only thing out there that is completely de-linked from
>>>> > official currencies and from things like precious metals, that is
>>>> > workable
>>>> > for more than just local exchange).
>>>> > To explain my perplexity on bitcoin stability, I quote from the site
>>>> > cyclonite linked:
>>>> > "How much is a Bitcoin worth?
>>>> >
>>>> > More all the time...
>>>> >
>>>> > As you can see, over a 4 week period, recently...
>>>> >
>>>> > The value of  ฿1.00 BTC (one Bitcoin), went from  US$0.06  to
>>>> >  US$0.50  ...within only about 4 weeks.   Yes...   That was an 833%
>>>> > increase
>>>> > in it's value.   Wow."
>>>> > (http://www.bitcoinme.com/)
>>>> > For me, a currency that is to be widely used, should be stable. Stable
>>>> > means
>>>> > it doesn't go down in value, but it also doesn't go up in value
>>>> > excessively.
>>>> > It should be roughly keeping its value. Going up as much as bitcoin
>>>> > evidently does, is a form of instability that will bring disturbance to
>>>> > a
>>>> > marketplace using bitcoin as its means of exchange.
>>>>
>>>> bitcoin does seem to have stabilized after that initial jump. I think
>>>> the initial jump was due to the network effect of how fast the current
>>>> group of adopters jumped on board and started using bitcoin.
>>>>
>>>> Still, this is a of course a valid point. Although, the value increase
>>>> seems to have been mostly beneficial to the early adopters. But, I
>>>> could see how if the system stabilized, then a new wave of adopters
>>>> jumped on board, it could suddenly become very unbalanced for the
>>>> initial participants if various scenarios unfold.
>>>>
>>>> Although, I am not sure *if* the bitcoin system would automatically
>>>> inflate in an exponential way each time a new wave of participants
>>>> joins the system.
>>>>
>>>> One real potential problem is making sure that "honest nodes" control
>>>> the majority of CPU power. So far, so good. It won't be easy for
>>>> anyone to spoof this system. But, if a group of people wants to
>>>> intentionally attack the system, there could be problems. Bitcoin is a
>>>> good candidate for complex systems models as a means to put more
>>>> foresight into stability, health, etc
>>>>
>>>> > This instability could and should be remedied by adjusting the target
>>>> > total
>>>> > of bitcoin creation with an algorithm that takes into account the
>>>> > number of
>>>> > active bitcoin users. As the number of users increases, the total
>>>> > target
>>>> > amount of bitcoins to be created (which currently is fixed at
>>>> > 21,000,000)
>>>> > should increase, slowly creeping up to accomodate the demand of new
>>>> > users
>>>> > for bitcoins, in a way to keep the value of one single coin roughly
>>>> > stable.
>>>> > I do not know whether the creators of bitcoin would be willing to do
>>>> > this.
>>>> > For me, such an adjustment will be necessary to take bitcoin from
>>>> > experimental status to widely-used alternative means of payment status.
>>>>
>>>> Sepp, this is a great point.
>>>>
>>>> One of the nice things about bitcoin is that it is F/LOSS, so it is
>>>> ultimately fork-able. If bad decisions are made about the growth, the
>>>> project could be forked, a different governance scheme could be
>>>> implemented, etc.
>>>>
>>>> I don't yet know enough about bitcoin to be 100% sure, but the system
>>>> at least for the time being does seem to have stabilized (it could
>>>> simply mean that participation has stabilized).
>>>>
>>>> Bit coin claims:
>>>>
>>>> "Once a predetermined number of coins have entered
>>>> circulation, the incentive can transition entirely to transaction fees
>>>> and be completely inflation
>>>> free."
>>>>
>>>> And yes Michel, I will post this on the blog and in wiki :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Kind regards
>>>> > Sepp
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Jan 17, 2011, at 4:44 AM, Samuel Rose wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Cyclonite, personally I am ready to work with bitcoin today, although
>>>> > the rest of p2pf may not be, which I'll respect
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Cyclonite <cyclonite at safe-mail.net>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Hi Guys,
>>>> >
>>>> > I think there is some kind of misunderstanding here, you do not need to
>>>> > manually generate any kind of public/private keys as with OpenPGP.
>>>> >
>>>> > You can even sign up in a website as mybitcoin.com and start making or
>>>> > receiving donations.
>>>> >
>>>> > In my opinion the best available info for beginners is
>>>> > http://bitcoinme.com.
>>>> > Please take a look and you will get your doubts clear.
>>>> >
>>>> > Best regards,
>>>> >
>>>> > Cyclonite.
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> >
>>>> > Secure Email contact: https://privacybox.de/cyclonite.msg
>>>> >
>>>> > Bitcoin donations jar: 16FVZweaaJLvhAy91oDugqaf84kXiDJ9PG
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > -------- Original Message --------
>>>> >
>>>> > From: Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>>>> >
>>>> > To: james burke <lifesized at gmail.com>
>>>> >
>>>> > Cc: Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>, cyclonite at safe-mail.net,
>>>> > p2p-foundation <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>, Sepp Hasslberger
>>>> > <sepp at lastrega.com>, Georg Pleger <g.pleger at yahoo.de>
>>>> >
>>>> > Subject: Re: Bitcoin donation
>>>> >
>>>> > Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 09:30:23 -0500
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:54 AM, james burke <lifesized at gmail.com>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Hi Michel,
>>>> >
>>>> > Yes, I do have a public key, but yet again,
>>>> >
>>>> > another nice idea with terrible interaction design and userbility
>>>> >
>>>> > - most people have no clue about public private keys, so this keeps it
>>>> > a
>>>> >
>>>> > geek thing
>>>> >
>>>> > I agree, although as far as I can see, the application at least takes
>>>> >
>>>> > care of this for the user. Still, your point is valid in that some
>>>> >
>>>> > people may not understand what is happening.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Most of the users of bitcoin now are early adopters, however. So, if
>>>> >
>>>> > p2pf did support donation via bitcoin, it would be joining an ecology
>>>> >
>>>> > of early adopters, and would likely only receive donation from those
>>>> >
>>>> > early adopters.
>>>> >
>>>> > - the actual app upon launch is unclear. Where to click, what to
>>>> > do,gah!
>>>> >
>>>> > I can't really support this even if it is a p2p solution.
>>>> >
>>>> > James
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Seems reasonable. If p2pf changes it's mind, I'm willing to
>>>> >
>>>> > participate in any experiments with bitcoin
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 5:57 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>>> > <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>>> >
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > James,
>>>> >
>>>> > do you have a public key?
>>>> >
>>>> > Michel
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>>>> >
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > This is a p2p application, so we would need to post your's or James's
>>>> >
>>>> > public key, and people who want to donate bitcoins would need then
>>>> >
>>>> > send you the bitcoins by downloading the bitcoin application and
>>>> >
>>>> > sending it to you
>>>> >
>>>> > quote:
>>>> >
>>>> > "Bitcoin utilizes public/private key digital signatures (ECDSA). A
>>>> >
>>>> > coin has its owner's public key on it. When a coin is transferred from
>>>> >
>>>> > user A to user B, A adds B’s public key to the coin and signs it with
>>>> >
>>>> > his own private key. Now B owns the coin and can transfer it further.
>>>> >
>>>> > To prevent A from transferring the already used coin to another user
>>>> >
>>>> > C, a public list of all the previous transactions is collectively
>>>> >
>>>> > maintained by the network of Bitcoin nodes, and before each
>>>> >
>>>> > transaction the coin’s unusedness will be checked."
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Michel Bauwens
>>>> >
>>>> > <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Sam, can you help us install it on the wiki and blog?
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>>>> >
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > I've downloaded and installed and am game to try with p2pf network
>>>> >
>>>> > folks.
>>>> >
>>>> > This could actually be really useful for lots of local economy efforts
>>>> >
>>>> > too.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 5:32 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>>> >
>>>> > <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>>> >
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Dear,
>>>> >
>>>> > thanks a lot for this email,
>>>> >
>>>> > it seems that it is worthwhile for us to experiment with this, but I
>>>> >
>>>> > will
>>>> >
>>>> > forward this to James Burke for possible implementation
>>>> >
>>>> > James, I think we should do this, what do  you think?
>>>> >
>>>> > Michel
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:42 PM, <cyclonite at safe-mail.net> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>> >
>>>> > Hash: SHA1
>>>> >
>>>> > Dear friends,
>>>> >
>>>> > I have been looking in your site for any reference to Bitcoin for
>>>> >
>>>> > making a
>>>> >
>>>> > small donation.
>>>> >
>>>> > As  you  probably  know,  Bitcoin  (bitcoin.org)  is  a  new kind
>>>> >
>>>> > of a
>>>> >
>>>> > P2P
>>>> >
>>>> > crypto-currency in which the general public can  make donations,
>>>> >
>>>> > macro
>>>> >
>>>> >  or
>>>> >
>>>> > micropayments   in  a  secure  and   anonymous  way  usually
>>>> >
>>>> >  without
>>>> >
>>>> >  any
>>>> >
>>>> > transaction fee involved.
>>>> >
>>>> > You can change Bitcoins for real money (eg: https://mtgox.com) or
>>>> >
>>>> > purchase
>>>> >
>>>> > services or goods in an increasing number of sites.
>>>> >
>>>> > In  order to  receive  donations you  only have  to  publish  one
>>>> >
>>>> >  of
>>>> >
>>>> > your
>>>> >
>>>> > accounts  as generated  by the  bitcoin client  or any specialized
>>>> >
>>>> > bitcoin
>>>> >
>>>> > trader (eg: mybitcoin.com).
>>>> >
>>>> > Currently  some   projects  as  www.i2p2.de,
>>>> >
>>>> >  www.torrentservers.net
>>>> >
>>>> > and
>>>> >
>>>> > organizations like the EFF are accepting donations.
>>>> >
>>>> > In  my  opinion  this  kind  of decentralized solution without the
>>>> >
>>>> > need
>>>> >
>>>> > to
>>>> >
>>>> > trust  any  middlemen  is much better than  Paypal, Visa or
>>>> >
>>>> > Mastercard
>>>> >
>>>> > for
>>>> >
>>>> > security-minded people as most of your donors are.
>>>> >
>>>> > If  you  are  interested in  pushing  Bitcoin forward,  do not
>>>> >
>>>> > hesitate
>>>> >
>>>> > to
>>>> >
>>>> > contact me if you have any doubt.
>>>> >
>>>> > Yours,
>>>> >
>>>> > Cyclonite
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> Sam Rose
>>>> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>> skype: samuelrose
>>>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>> http://forwardfound.org
>>>> http://futureforwardinstitute.org
>>>> http://hollymeadcapital.com
>>>> http://p2pfoundation.net
>>>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>>
>>>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>
>>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>
>>> Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>
>> Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Sam Rose
> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
> skype: samuelrose
> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
> http://forwardfound.org
> http://futureforwardinstitute.org
> http://hollymeadcapital.com
> http://p2pfoundation.net
> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>
> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>


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