[P2P-F] sustainable agriculture

Fri Jan 21 12:56:17 CET 2011

thanks Roberto

On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Roberto Verzola <rverzola at gn.apc.org>wrote:

>  Hi Michel,
>
> Patrice Riemens, who was also at the Berlin ICC 2010, called my attention
> (see below) to a book by FHKing on Chinese agriculture in the early 20th
> century, which I found very informative. King said the West had a lot to
> learn from China, whose agricultural practices then were quite sustainable.
> Unfortunately, what happened instead is that China imported the agricultural
> practices of the West (as Schumacher said, if you import the technology, you
> are bound to import its embedded ideology too).
>
> Roberto
>
> FH King apparently predicted 100 years ago that we were heading towards a
> major economic crisis and that we should concentrate on locally/
> regionally based food production & consumption.
> http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010122king/ffc.html
>
> (I think it's the whole book, is also on the Gutenberg project site)
>
> on FH King:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Hiram_King
>
>
>
>
>
> Michel Bauwens wrote:
>
> Just a question to this crowd of urban experts.
>
> I once read that Chinese cities used to produce 60% of their food
> requirements within or just around their city walls. Does anyone have a
> reference for this.
>
> A remark on ruralization. I don't think we should empty out the cities, but
> nevertheless, a new balance may be necessary. As I see it, people leave
> rural areas for two main reasons, one is they have to for reasons of
> economic survival, as capitalist dynamics destroy their livelyhoods; but the
> other one is cultural: many young people, leave rural areas for cultural
> reasons, they see no dynamic future in their static and isolated rural
> areas. Here is where the Global Villages strategy of Franz Nahrada comes in,
> the use digital connectivity, empowerement and peer learning to de-isolate
> the rural. I can take my own life as an example, I can be a throught
> leader from a provincial city in the forests of northern thailand, a place
> which two generations ago was still three days travel from the capital city,
> but is now connected through global satellites and broadband internet, and I
> feel hardly any sense of isolation anymore. Of course, I have the cultural
> capital to use these tools, which many still lack, but these are not
> insurmountable problems. Just want to say, it's not either-or, rural or
> urban, but a mix, and my guess is that the relocalization you call for, and
> a return to say organic sustainable agriculture, will require a more labour
> intensive rural area. I've read, again I forgot where, that a sustainable
> world would perhaps require a return to a rural population of about 20%.
>
> Michel
>
> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 5:58 AM, MIGUEL ALOYSIO SATTLER <
> masattler at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Michael,
>>
>> I actually share with you the idea of "*a Sim-city kind of approach*"
>> would be very helpful in providing us with some of the necessary answers.
>> And, yes, as you probably guessed, I am one among those in favor of a
>> re-ruralization of our habitat. For nothing else than for our own survival.
>> And that, in line with the Green Fingers of Alexander or the Future *Neothecnic
>> *Cities of John Lyle. On the one hand we (not only some privileged
>> people, even less the whole humanity) cannot afford continue having a 5000
>> miles Cesar Salad. On the other hand, the slavery of food production, the
>> exploitation of those producing our food has to finish... Bringing these
>> food producers closer to urban spaces, as put by Alexander in the
>> patterns, would offer them the possibility of sharing the benefits of the
>> cities (health care, education, leisure, ...) at the same time that the
>> productive land would absorb what we consider as being our wastes (that,
>> actually, are resources). To do that we have, already for a long time, the
>> adequate technologies (energy generation from biodigestion, composting,
>> ...).
>>  Different sources indicate that (at least in Europe) each person would
>> require 40m2 as one´s roof (in Brazil, we might have 8 people living in same
>> space), a share of 400m2 in urban space, but 4000m2 of productive space to
>> suply the minimum required food necessities - this in a Brazilian food
>> diet for low income people (some say 2000m2, in a diet without meat and
>> grains). I am sure that this statement would annoy Jane Jacobs, as will
>> certainly do with her followers... How to find a solution for all these
>> requirements? I suggest to my students that we should start developing a
>> sustainability version of Sim-city, that also, following the same approach
>> adopted by Wil Wright, would also be based on Pattern Language. Certainly
>> that would require much more effort and time (and money), than that of 10
>> PhD thesis...
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Miguel
>> ,
>> 2010/12/28 Michael Mehaffy <michael.mehaffy at gmail.com>
>>
>>> Hello Dante,
>>>
>>>  Many communities use a Geographic Information System (GIS) and these
>>> are often available to the public, either on-line, or with downloadable
>>> data, or both. They are typically layered so it's possible to add one or
>>> more layers - depending on the software you use to view it (this varies
>>> depending on the system).
>>>
>>>  In New Orleans however, we proposed to bypass the usual GIS system and
>>> use a Google Earth "mashup" (which allows you to create custom data from
>>> other programs and mesh it with the maps).  That way we felt that anyone
>>> could use the resulting system and add their data.  We had computer people
>>> on the team so I am not able to give you the technical details - but someone
>>> more skilled in mashups can probably give you enough to go on.  As with a
>>> lot of this technology, I think once you get the basics, the most important
>>> thing is just to play with it and learn!
>>>
>>>  Another option that we need to explore, I think, is using generative
>>> procedures t create forms collaboratively.  In principle this could be done
>>> with SketchUp and Google Earth, but a) creating the structures requires
>>> expertise, and b) those with expertise - architects - are generally not good
>>> enough at facilitating the collaboration of others.  Too much top-down
>>> approach, usually...  Hence this effort...
>>>
>>>  We might explore other models, like a Sim-city kind of approach, based
>>> on patterns (in fact the game was based on Pattern Language in the first
>>> place, according to Wil Wright).  But this would take a lot of time, and
>>> very likely, money!  So we need shortcuts...
>>>
>>>  Cheers, m
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 3:58 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
>>> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi to all on this list,
>>>>
>>>>  I want to put forward and ask some technical questions which I believe
>>>> are pretty practical,
>>>> to facilitate collaboration for citizen participation in city
>>>> (re)development.
>>>>
>>>>  It involves map layerings,
>>>> and I wondered if some of you may be aware
>>>> of certain tools I may not be aware of yet, so I could use them ?
>>>>
>>>>  Or if they do not exist, how difficult would it be to create them ?
>>>>
>>>>  My background is that of a netroots hitch hiking nomad who is
>>>> interested in setting up some physical resilient living space base.
>>>>
>>>>  Here goes for the question / suggestion :
>>>>
>>>>  The starting point is a personal project which I choose to be in
>>>> Leipzig, Germany.
>>>> There are vacant buildings ( about one fifth of all buildings ? ),
>>>> which makes some of these buildings more affordable then other cities.
>>>> Hence, I'd like to use it as an experimental space to set up a local
>>>> network economy,
>>>> with not for loss/not for financial profit/use value
>>>> and p2p cooperative principles, building up on peer property, governance
>>>> and production.
>>>>
>>>>  The is one of the wiki pages me and some other friends use to
>>>> brainstorm :
>>>>
>>>>  http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project
>>>>
>>>>  Enough friends offered to buy shares as to guarantee the purchase of a
>>>> first building.
>>>> Now, the challenge is to be able to *use all data and , based on needs
>>>> for projects, select the ideal area and choose the ideal first building to
>>>> start the project.*
>>>>
>>>>    Now that Google Street View is available for some cities in germany,
>>>> such as Berlin or Leipzig, it also makes it easier to show to potential
>>>> investors , and further increase participation online.
>>>>
>>>>  I wondered how difficult it would be to* enable automatic KML layering
>>>> *,
>>>> after doing a specific research, such as buildings in Leipzig (
>>>> according to price or size criteria for example ) from data such as
>>>>
>>>>  http://lwb-immobilienangebote.de/index.php/objekte/suchen
>>>>
>>>>  ( a company that inherited from the formaly east german housing
>>>> cooperative )
>>>>
>>>>  This would be very useful, to choose, then view directly with Google
>>>> Street View, buildings of interest for me and friends to invest in, while
>>>> collaboratively compiling important data about the buildings, the
>>>> neighbourhood,
>>>>
>>>>  by eventually enabling additional connections to every points on the
>>>> layer for open comments or linking to wiki pages ?
>>>>
>>>>  Enabling each point on a KML layering to have some kind of URI ?
>>>> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyhole_Markup_Language ;
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Identifier )
>>>>
>>>>  Or even enabler social networks ( people login from facebook, or
>>>> enable a direct link map that can be added to identica and twitter, and
>>>> serve as a tag for other interested twitter users... ? )
>>>>
>>>>  Hence enabling emergent collaboration for the redelopment of a city ?
>>>>
>>>>  Perhaps also a layer for open street map ? ( if that exists ? )
>>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Main_Page
>>>>
>>>>  I do know about wikimapia which enables adding specific data about
>>>> places
>>>> http://wikimapia.org
>>>>
>>>>  but I am not sure such tool is ideal when it comes to specific
>>>> projects / our own project layers,
>>>> or for enabling the superposition of various layers extracted based on
>>>> specific researches.
>>>>
>>>>  Perhaps also that Open Layers could be of use ( although I do not know
>>>> much about it )
>>>> http://openlayers.org/ ?
>>>>
>>>>  I also know that one can create ones own maps on google maps,
>>>> which could be one way to go.
>>>>
>>>>  In that case, how to enable automated access to databases directly
>>>> represented on the maps ?
>>>>
>>>>  Then finally, how to make such databases, from private companies and
>>>> from governmental organizations alike, directly available on maps.
>>>> ( including access such as water grid information, public transportation
>>>> data, electricity, gas, fiber optic internet grid data... ? - latest dates
>>>> for construction works, or planned construction works, ... - or data
>>>> regarding the condition of the houses, legal information , size of
>>>> buildings, fire department information, possibly even demographics , ... )
>>>>
>>>>  Hence on one hand, a political aspect of making such information
>>>> accessible,
>>>> and on the other, technical solutions, to enable layering of information
>>>> layers on maps,
>>>> and finally uniform resource identifiers ( URI ) which can be used and
>>>> connected to profiles, or as links on blogs and micro-blogging tools,
>>>> as to further enable emergent collaboration ?
>>>>
>>>>  Does any of you work on this,
>>>> or does any of you know of some answers going in this direction ?
>>>> Does any of you use such tools ?
>>>>
>>>>  I do understand this may be a booming field.
>>>> I remember watching this video :
>>>>
>>>>  http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_images.jsp?cntn_id=118063&org=NSF
>>>>
>>>>  Perhaps I missed some mails on this list that mentioned such ideas,
>>>> as I notice the title of this list is
>>>>
>>>>  "p2p-urbanism-world-atlas"
>>>>
>>>>  Thanks!
>>>>
>>>>  Dante
>>>> http://hitchwiki.org/en/Dante
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>>> "P2P-Urbanism World Atlas" group.
>>>> to register to the group
>>>> http://cityleft.blogspot.com/
>>>> To post to this group, send email to
>>>> p2p-urbanism-world-atlas at googlegroups.com
>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/p2p-urbanism-world-atlas?hl=en
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>> Michael Mehaffy
>>> 333 S. State Street, Suite V-440
>>> Lake Oswego, OR 97034
>>> www.tectics.com
>>>   --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>> "P2P-Urbanism World Atlas" group.
>>> to register to the group
>>> http://cityleft.blogspot.com/
>>> To post to this group, send email to
>>> p2p-urbanism-world-atlas at googlegroups.com
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/p2p-urbanism-world-atlas?hl=en
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Prof. Miguel Aloysio Sattler, PhD
>> Depto. de Engenharia Civil/NORIE
>> UFRGS
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>> "P2P-Urbanism World Atlas" group.
>> to register to the group
>> http://cityleft.blogspot.com/
>> To post to this group, send email to
>> p2p-urbanism-world-atlas at googlegroups.com
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/p2p-urbanism-world-atlas?hl=en
>>
>
>
>
> --
> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>
> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>
> Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> P2P Foundation - Mailing listhttp://www.p2pfoundation.nethttps://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>
>

-- 
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

Think tank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: https://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/p2p-foundation/attachments/20110121/82adff15/attachment.htm 