thanks Roberto<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Roberto Verzola <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rverzola@gn.apc.org">rverzola@gn.apc.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Hi Michel,<br>
<br>
Patrice Riemens, who was also at the Berlin ICC 2010, called my
attention (see below) to a book by FHKing on Chinese agriculture in the
early 20th century, which I found very informative. King said the West
had a lot to learn from China, whose agricultural practices then were
quite sustainable. Unfortunately, what happened instead is that China
imported the agricultural practices of the West (as Schumacher said, if
you import the technology, you are bound to import its embedded
ideology too).<br>
<br>
Roberto<br>
<pre>FH King apparently predicted 100 years ago that we were heading towards a
major economic crisis and that we should concentrate on locally/
regionally based food production & consumption.
<a href="http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010122king/ffc.html" target="_blank">http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010122king/ffc.html</a>
(I think it's the whole book, is also on the Gutenberg project site)
on FH King: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Hiram_King" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Hiram_King</a>
</pre>
<br>
<br>
Michel Bauwens wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">Just a question to this crowd of urban experts.<br>
<br>
I once read that Chinese cities used to produce 60% of their food
requirements within or just around their city walls. Does anyone have a
reference for this.<br>
<br>
A remark on ruralization. I don't think we should empty out the cities,
but nevertheless, a new balance may be necessary. As I see it, people
leave rural areas for two main reasons, one is they have to for reasons
of economic survival, as capitalist dynamics destroy their livelyhoods;
but the other one is cultural: many young people, leave rural areas for
cultural reasons, they see no dynamic future in their static and
isolated rural areas. Here is where the Global Villages strategy of
Franz Nahrada comes in, the use digital connectivity, empowerement and
peer learning to de-isolate th<span></span>e
rural. I can take my own life as an example, I can be a throught leader
from a provincial city in the forests of northern thailand, a place
which two generations ago was still three days travel from the capital
city, but is now connected through global satellites and broadband
internet, and I feel hardly any sense of isolation anymore. Of course,
I have the cultural capital to use these tools, which many still lack,
but these are not insurmountable problems. Just want to say, it's not
either-or, rural or urban, but a mix, and my guess is that the
relocalization you call for, and a return to say organic sustainable
agriculture, will require a more labour intensive rural area. I've
read, again I forgot where, that a sustainable world would perhaps
require a return to a rural population of about 20%.<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 5:58 AM, MIGUEL
ALOYSIO SATTLER <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:masattler@gmail.com" target="_blank">masattler@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>Michael,</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>I actually share with you the idea of "<b>a Sim-city kind of
approach</b>" would be very helpful in providing us with some of the
necessary answers. And, yes, as you probably�guessed, I am one among
those in favor of a re-ruralization of our habitat. For nothing else
than for our own survival. And that, in line with the Green Fingers of
Alexander or the Future <b>Neothecnic </b>Cities of John Lyle. On the
one hand we�(not only�some privileged people, even less the whole
humanity)�cannot afford continue having a 5000 miles Cesar Salad. On
the other hand, the slavery of food production, the exploitation of
those producing our food has to finish... Bringing these food producers
closer to urban spaces, as put by Alexander in the patterns,�would
offer them the possibility of sharing the benefits of the cities
(health care, education, leisure,�...) at the same time that�the
productive�land would absorb what we consider as being our wastes
(that, actually, are resources). To do that we have, already for a long
time,�the adequate�technologies (energy generation from biodigestion,
composting, ...).<br>
</div>
<div>Different sources indicate that (at least in Europe) each
person would require 40m2 as one�s roof (in Brazil, we might have 8
people living in same space), a share of 400m2 in urban space, but
4000m2 of productive space�to suply�the minimum required�food
necessities - this�in a�Brazilian food diet�for low income people�(some
say 2000m2,�in a diet without�meat and grains). I am sure that
this�statement would annoy Jane Jacobs, as will certainly�do with her
followers... How to find a solution for all these requirements? I
suggest to my students that we should start developing a sustainability
version of Sim-city, that also, following the same approach adopted by
Wil Wright, would also be based on Pattern Language. Certainly that
would require much more effort and time (and money), than that of 10
PhD thesis...</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>�</div>
<div>Miguel<br>
, </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">2010/12/28 Michael Mehaffy <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michael.mehaffy@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.mehaffy@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">Hello Dante,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Many communities use a Geographic Information System (GIS)
and these are often available to the public, either on-line, or with
downloadable data, or both. They are typically layered so it's possible
to add one or more layers - depending on the software you use to view
it (this varies depending on the system). �</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In New Orleans however, we proposed to bypass the usual GIS
system and use a Google Earth "mashup" (which allows you to create
custom data from other programs and mesh it with the maps). �That way
we felt that anyone could use the resulting system and add their data.
�We had computer people on the team so I am not able to give you the
technical details - but someone more skilled in mashups can probably
give you enough to go on. �As with a lot of this technology, I think
once you get the basics, the most important thing is just to play with
it and learn!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Another option that we need to explore, I think, is using
generative procedures t create forms collaboratively. �In principle
this could be done with SketchUp and Google Earth, but a) creating the
structures requires expertise, and b) those with expertise - architects
- are generally not good enough at facilitating the collaboration of
others. �Too much top-down approach, usually... �Hence this effort...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We might explore other models, like a Sim-city kind of
approach, based on patterns (in fact the game was based on Pattern
Language in the first place, according to Wil Wright). �But this would
take a lot of time, and very likely, money! �So we need shortcuts...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers, m�
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 3:58 AM,
Dante-Gabryell Monson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dante.monson@gmail.com" target="_blank">dante.monson@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">Hi to all on this list,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I want to put forward and ask some technical questions
which I believe are pretty practical,</div>
<div>to facilitate collaboration�for citizen participation in
city (re)development.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It involves map layerings,</div>
<div>and I wondered if some of you may be aware</div>
<div>of certain tools I may not be aware of yet, so I could use
them ?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Or if they do not exist, how difficult would it be to
create them ?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My background is that of a netroots hitch hiking nomad who
is interested in setting up some physical resilient living space base.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here goes for the question / suggestion :</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The starting point is a personal project which I choose to
be in Leipzig, Germany.</div>
<div>There are vacant buildings ( about one fifth of all
buildings ? ),</div>
<div>which makes some of these buildings more affordable then
other cities.</div>
<div>Hence, I'd like to use it as an experimental space to set
up a local network economy,</div>
<div>with not for loss/not for financial profit/use value</div>
<div>and p2p cooperative principles, building up on peer
property, governance and production.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The is one of the wiki pages me and some other friends use
to brainstorm :</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project" target="_blank">http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Enough friends offered to buy shares as to guarantee the
purchase of a first building.</div>
<div>Now, the challenge is to be able to <b><u>use all data
and , based on needs for projects, select the ideal area and choose the
ideal first building to start the project.</u></b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>
<div>Now that Google Street View is available for some cities
in germany, such as Berlin or Leipzig, it also makes it easier to show
to potential investors , and further increase participation online.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I wondered how difficult it would be to<i><b> enable
automatic KML layering</b></i>,</div>
<div>after doing a specific research, such as buildings in
Leipzig ( according to price or size criteria for example ) from data
such as</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="http://lwb-immobilienangebote.de/index.php/objekte/suchen" target="_blank">http://lwb-immobilienangebote.de/index.php/objekte/suchen</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>( a company that inherited from the formaly east german
housing cooperative )</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This would be very useful, to choose, then view directly
with Google Street View, buildings of interest for me and friends to
invest in, while collaboratively compiling important data about the
buildings, the neighbourhood,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>by�eventually enabling additional connections to every
points on the layer for open comments or linking to wiki pages ?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Enabling each point on a KML layering to have some kind of
URI ?</div>
<div>(�<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyhole_Markup_Language" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyhole_Markup_Language</a>�;�<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Identifier" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Identifier</a>�)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Or even enabler social networks ( people login from
facebook, or enable a direct link map that can be added to identica and
twitter,�and serve as a tag for other interested twitter users... ? )</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hence enabling emergent collaboration for the redelopment
of a city ?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Perhaps also a layer for open street map ? ( if that
exists ? )</div>
<div><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Main_Page" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Main_Page</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I do know about wikimapia which enables adding specific
data about places</div>
<div><a href="http://wikimapia.org/" target="_blank">http://wikimapia.org</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>but I am not sure such tool is ideal when it comes to
specific projects / our own project layers,</div>
<div>or for enabling the superposition of various layers
extracted based on specific researches.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Perhaps also that Open Layers could be of use ( although I
do not know much about it )</div>
<div><a href="http://openlayers.org/" target="_blank">http://openlayers.org/</a>�?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I also know that one can create ones own maps on google
maps,</div>
<div>which could be one way to go.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In that case, how to enable automated access to databases
directly represented on the maps ?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Then finally, how to make such databases, from private
companies and from governmental organizations alike, directly available
on maps.</div>
<div>( including access such as water grid information, public
transportation data, electricity, gas,�fiber�optic internet grid
data... ? - latest dates for construction works, or planned
construction works, ... - or data regarding the condition of the
houses, legal information , size of buildings, fire department
information, possibly even demographics , ... )</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hence on one hand, a political aspect of making such
information accessible,</div>
<div>and on the other, technical solutions, to enable layering
of information layers on maps,</div>
<div>and finally uniform resource identifiers ( URI ) which can
be used and connected to profiles, or as links on blogs
and�micro-blogging�tools,</div>
<div>as to further enable emergent collaboration ?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Does any of you work on this,</div>
<div>or does any of you know of some answers going in this
direction ?</div>
<div>Does any of you use such tools ?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I do understand this may be a booming field.</div>
<div>I remember watching this video :</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_images.jsp?cntn_id=118063&org=NSF" target="_blank">http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_images.jsp?cntn_id=118063&org=NSF</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Perhaps I missed some mails on this list
that�mentioned�such ideas,</div>
<div>as I notice the title of this list is�</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>"p2p-urbanism-world-atlas"</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dante</div>
<div><a href="http://hitchwiki.org/en/Dante" target="_blank">http://hitchwiki.org/en/Dante</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
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