[P2P-F] An update on BIBO, financial stability standards, and the debt-virus hypothesis

Thu Feb 10 10:48:41 CET 2011

thanks stephane,

if one day you have an english collaborator or a text which explains the
philosophical foundations of your system/proposal, an elaboration of your
points below, do let me know,

Michel

On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Stéphane Laborde <laborde_stephane at yahoo.fr
> wrote:

>  Le 10/02/2011 09:37, Thomas Greco a écrit :
>
> I've only taken a cursory look at the website but it seems that there is no
> solid underlying rationale that assures *reciprocity*, which is basic
> objective of any monetary system/currency--give as much value as you get
> over a reasonably short period of time.
>
>
> This means nothing as value is totally relative to any individual.
>
> Neither Leonard da Vinci nor Albert Einstein has received such a
> "recyprocity". It should have been impossible to any member of their
> community as their GIFT of VALUE had no common mesure, and was not
> understood.
>
> This is why this false idea conduce all pre-relativistic thought into
> crisis wall. By not understanding FREEDOM and CREATIVITY, as basic and
> fundamental element of any economy.
>
> Creativity has no mesure.
>
> Exchange is only an agreement, not a common mesure.
>
>
>
> I am an advocate of a universal dividend but it is not something that
> should be incorporated into an exchange (money) system.
> Any dividend must be allocated out of the aggregate production and
> accumulated wealth of a community, which is something that is NOT reflected
> in the supply of exchange media (money).
>
>
> Missundestanding between VALUE (production) which is an INDIVIDUAL MESURE,
> and MONEY, which is a COMMON (community) agreement to allow exchanges.
>
> I don't agree to any "production" you could define, neither millions of
> people. What you define as "production" is "destruction" for other people,
> and no one can define it but denying FREEDOM of choice of what is value and
> what it is not.
>
>
>
> Anyone who has read my latest book, *The End of Money*, should realize
> that the amount of money outstanding (total credits or debits in a credit
> clearing system) is determined by the amount of trading, not by the number
> of participants. It is the total amount of credit that has been extended by
> sellers to buyers that has not yet been cleared by those buyers having
> reciprocated by selling. The supply of "money" (credit) outstanding,
> therefore, is automatically determined by the needs of the traders,
> increasing and decreasing in accordance with transaction (economic)
> activity.
>
>
> I deny ANY justification of creating money by CREDIT.
>
> This is contradictory with RELATIVE MONEY THEORY. Relative Money Theory
> deny the right to any individual to CREATE money by credit. Relative Money
> Theory is only compatible with 100% monney created by universal dividend as
> only acceptable basis.
>
>
>  There must, of course be limits on the amount of credit that can be
> granted to each account, those limits being determined mainly by the sales
> history of each account..
>
>
> This denying DEATH of people as liberating debts, and so create money for
> nothing.
>
> Births and Deaths are not understood by classical analyses. Their ignore
> deaths, and deny the right to be born. They don't understand what is a
> discrete flow.
>
> Eternel ignorance of reality of births and deaths is the basis of all
> generations crisis since 10 000 years.
>
>
> E.C. Riegel is quite eloquent in expressing the fundamental principles. I
> wish more people would read his books.
>
> Thomas H. Greco, Jr.thg at mindspring.com
> Mobile phone: +66 852 139 650 Thailand
> Website: http://www.Reinventingmoney.com
> Blogs: Beyond Money: http://beyondmoney.net
> Tom's News and Views: http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com
> Photo gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg
> Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
> My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization" from
> Chelsea Green Publishers is now in print and can be ordered from Chelsea
> Green Publishing or Amazon.com.
>
>
> On 02/09/2011 12:22 PM, Sepp Hasslberger wrote:
>
> Dear Michel, Stephane,
>
>  I have looked at the English introduction pages, unfortunately my French
> is not good enough to understand something fairly technical and complex.
>
>  While I am happy to see that there is a universal dividend incorporated
> into this money system, I am not sure that it will work. As far as I can
> understand, there is monthly money creation by all members of the system,
> and with time the monetary mass will grow, actually the graphic for growth
> of monetary mass assuming a fixed number of members on this page
>
>  http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
>
>  shows that there is a rather steep increase of the monetary mass, all
> serving the same number of members. This means that the currency will be
> inflationary by design. More money for the same amount of business means
> that products, or anything that is exchanged in this economy, will come to
> cost more and more as time passes. One could also say that each unit of
> money will be worth less and less as time passes. This is not a good basis
> for a monetary system.
>
>  It would be rather  easy however, to engineer the system for price
> stability. All that would need to be done is for the money to be created
> with a date of expiry. Each unit on monetary value, once it has been
> created, would need to start losing some of its nominal value every month,
> until it expires (has no more value) at the end of a period to be
> determined. This would make sure that the monetary mass could be stable in
> the case of a fixed number of members. After the period of initialization,
> money created equals money lost to expiry. No inflation of prices would
> ensue, because the monetary mass stays constant. Such a mechanism would also
> mean that the monetary mass could grow in line with a growing number of
> members. The total monetary mass would thus depend on the number of
> participants, and prices in the system would tend to be stable.
>
>  Without such a mechanism, I am afraid the system would not be workable.
> Money, to be used for real commerce, should have reasonably stable value
> over time. Only by limiting the total monetary mass in accordance with the
> number of members, can this goal be reached.
>
>  Kind regards
> Sepp
>
>
>
>   *"The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition"*
>
>  http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/
> http://www.laleva.org
> http://blog.hasslberger.com/
> http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger
>  http://twitter.com/healthsupreme
>
>  .
>
>  On Feb 8, 2011, at 7:05 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>
> Many thanks Stephane,
>
> I have created a overview page at
> http://p2pfoundation.net/Open-Universal_Digital_Currency_Project
>
> Dear Sepp, could you have a look, present this project and eventually put
> it into context of other projects in this related space?
>
> I think the innovative part here is that it is directly linked to the
> mechanism of the universal dividend, and this is why it's particularly worth
> supporting,
>
> Michel
>
> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Stéphane Laborde <
> laborde_stephane at yahoo.fr> wrote:
>
>>  You can present Open-UDC with :
>>
>> General presentation : http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
>>
>> And Money Rules : http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
>>
>> You can add that Open-UDC go with a a progressive goal following three
>> steps :
>>
>> 1) Implementation with centralised server
>> 2) Implementation with hierarchical organisation
>> 3) Implementation with P2P System
>>
>> Money rules are a money system named Open-UDC. The technical system in
>> charge of the money rules is independant of Open-UDC and named Open-UDS.
>>
>> Stéphane Laborde
>> 9, rue Ganneron, 75018 PARIS
>> Tel. 09 54 87 03 18
>> Mobile : 06 64 42 25 99
>>
>>
>> Le 08/02/2011 06:36, Michel Bauwens a écrit :
>>
>>  Cher Stephane,
>>
>> If you have any non-technical text on this, I'd like to announce it on the
>> p2p foundation blog,
>>
>> Un grand merci!
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com<michelsub2004 at gmail..com>
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> didn't know that one! will definitely check out and add to
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money,
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:29 PM, olivier auber <olivierauber2 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ok!
>>>>
>>>> J'oubliais, La Théorie Relative de la Monnaie (TRM) est la base du
>>>> développement du
>>>> Open-Universal Digital Currency project
>>>> http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
>>>>
>>>> Et ça c'est en anglais, entre autres...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Olivier
>>>>
>>>> 2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> thanks a lot Olivier, if you hear from the english translation at some
>>>>> point, thanks for letting me know!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:19 PM, olivier auber <
>>>>> olivierauber2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bonjour matinal Michel,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sur ce sujet, j'attire ton attention sur un auteur français à
>>>>>> l'origine d'une très intéressante "théorie relative de la monnaie" qui
>>>>>> permet de calculer très exactement différentes choses, notamment l'expansion
>>>>>> de la masse monétaire conduisant à une économie durable, ainsi que le
>>>>>> montant du Dividende Universel qui serait le vecteur de cette expansion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Il s'appelle Stéphane Laborde.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Le livre est ici :
>>>>>> http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.html
>>>>>> Le blog là : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Malheureusement, tout cela n'existe qu'en français pour le moment.
>>>>>> Un traduction en anglais est en cours, je crois.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Amicalement
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Olivier
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Sepp,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> because the discussion is largely technical, this is all I can do,
>>>>>>> but perhaps you can add an extra comment?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> also, if you are in contact with Marc, please give him a chance to
>>>>>>> say something about the evolution of the bibo project since december 2009,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=13869>
>>>>>>> [image: photo of Michel Bauwens]
>>>>>>> Michel Bauwens
>>>>>>> 16th February 2011
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In December 2009, Sepp Hasslberger introduced to us Bibo, a proposed
>>>>>>> standard for stable currencies, that would replace the current inherently
>>>>>>> unstable banking money system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This article has become our most comment rich article, in particular
>>>>>>> through a recurring debate between one of the Bibo co-authors Marc, and
>>>>>>> Ardeshir Mehta.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ardeshir has written an article that challenges one of the main
>>>>>>> points of monetary reformers, i.e. that the current system leads to the
>>>>>>> infinite creation of debt through compound interest.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can find it here<http://homepage.mac.com/ardeshir/DebunkingTheDebt-VirusHypothesis.html>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The context:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *“Currently, most if not all money is loaned into existence by
>>>>>>> banks, and is thus based on interest-bearing debt. There is no question that
>>>>>>> neither interest nor debt-based money are good for society, and I have
>>>>>>> written denouncing both debt and interest elsewhere. However, there is a
>>>>>>> fairly common thesis, based on the fact that money is loaned into existence
>>>>>>> as interest-bearing debt, that if new loans are not continually being issued
>>>>>>> in ever-increasing amounts, enough money will not be created to pay the
>>>>>>> interest on existing loans; and as a result, at least some those loans will
>>>>>>> be defaulted upon, resulting in inevitable foreclosures. “*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens<http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Commons Strategies Group, http://www.commonsstrategies.org/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Olivier Auber
>>>>>> 0675038880
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>> Olivier Auber
>>>> 0675038880
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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>>
>
>
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