[P2P-F] An update on BIBO, financial stability standards, and the debt-virus hypothesis
Thomas Greco
thg at mindspring.com
Thu Feb 10 09:37:56 CET 2011
I've only taken a cursory look at the website but it seems that there is
no solid underlying rationale that assures *reciprocity*, which is basic
objective of any monetary system/currency--give as much value as you get
over a reasonably short period of time.
I am an advocate of a universal dividend but it is not something that
should be incorporated into an exchange (money) system.
Any dividend must be allocated out of the aggregate production and
accumulated wealth of a community, which is something that is NOT
reflected in the supply of exchange media (money).
Anyone who has read my latest book, /The End of Money/, should realize
that the amount of money outstanding (total credits or debits in a
credit clearing system) is determined by the amount of trading, not by
the number of participants. It is the total amount of credit that has
been extended by sellers to buyers that has not yet been cleared by
those buyers having reciprocated by selling. The supply of "money"
(credit) outstanding, therefore, is automatically determined by the
needs of the traders, increasing and decreasing in accordance with
transaction (economic) activity.
There must, of course be limits on the amount of credit that can be
granted to each account, those limits being determined mainly by the
sales history of each account..
E.C. Riegel is quite eloquent in expressing the fundamental principles.
I wish more people would read his books.
Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
thg at mindspring.com
Mobile phone: +66 852 139 650 Thailand
Website: http://www.Reinventingmoney.com
Blogs: Beyond Money: http://beyondmoney.net
Tom's News and Views: http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com
Photo gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg
Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization" from
Chelsea Green Publishers is now in print and can be ordered from Chelsea
Green Publishing or Amazon.com.
On 02/09/2011 12:22 PM, Sepp Hasslberger wrote:
> Dear Michel, Stephane,
>
> I have looked at the English introduction pages, unfortunately my
> French is not good enough to understand something fairly technical and
> complex.
>
> While I am happy to see that there is a universal dividend
> incorporated into this money system, I am not sure that it will work.
> As far as I can understand, there is monthly money creation by all
> members of the system, and with time the monetary mass will grow,
> actually the graphic for growth of monetary mass assuming a fixed
> number of members on this page
>
> http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
>
> shows that there is a rather steep increase of the monetary mass, all
> serving the same number of members. This means that the currency will
> be inflationary by design. More money for the same amount of business
> means that products, or anything that is exchanged in this economy,
> will come to cost more and more as time passes. One could also say
> that each unit of money will be worth less and less as time
> passes. This is not a good basis for a monetary system.
>
> It would be rather easy however, to engineer the system for price
> stability. All that would need to be done is for the money to be
> created with a date of expiry. Each unit on monetary value, once it
> has been created, would need to start losing some of its nominal value
> every month, until it expires (has no more value) at the end of a
> period to be determined. This would make sure that the monetary mass
> could be stable in the case of a fixed number of members. After the
> period of initialization, money created equals money lost to expiry.
> No inflation of prices would ensue, because the monetary mass stays
> constant. Such a mechanism would also mean that the monetary mass
> could grow in line with a growing number of members. The total
> monetary mass would thus depend on the number of participants, and
> prices in the system would tend to be stable.
>
> Without such a mechanism, I am afraid the system would not be
> workable. Money, to be used for real commerce, should have reasonably
> stable value over time. Only by limiting the total monetary mass in
> accordance with the number of members, can this goal be reached.
>
> Kind regards
> Sepp
>
>
>
> */"The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition"/*
>
> http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/
> http://www.laleva.org
> http://blog.hasslberger.com/
> http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger
> http://twitter.com/healthsupreme
>
> .
>
> On Feb 8, 2011, at 7:05 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>
>> Many thanks Stephane,
>>
>> I have created a overview page at
>> http://p2pfoundation.net/Open-Universal_Digital_Currency_Project
>>
>> Dear Sepp, could you have a look, present this project and eventually
>> put it into context of other projects in this related space?
>>
>> I think the innovative part here is that it is directly linked to the
>> mechanism of the universal dividend, and this is why it's
>> particularly worth supporting,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Stéphane Laborde
>> <laborde_stephane at yahoo.fr <mailto:laborde_stephane at yahoo.fr>> wrote:
>>
>> You can present Open-UDC with :
>>
>> General presentation : http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
>>
>> And Money Rules : http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
>>
>> You can add that Open-UDC go with a a progressive goal following
>> three steps :
>>
>> 1) Implementation with centralised server
>> 2) Implementation with hierarchical organisation
>> 3) Implementation with P2P System
>>
>> Money rules are a money system named Open-UDC. The technical
>> system in charge of the money rules is independant of Open-UDC
>> and named Open-UDS.
>>
>> Stéphane Laborde
>> 9, rue Ganneron, 75018 PARIS
>> Tel. 09 54 87 03 18
>> Mobile : 06 64 42 25 99
>>
>>
>> Le 08/02/2011 06:36, Michel Bauwens a écrit :
>>> Cher Stephane,
>>>
>>> If you have any non-technical text on this, I'd like to announce
>>> it on the p2p foundation blog,
>>>
>>> Un grand merci!
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Michel Bauwens
>>> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail..com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> didn't know that one! will definitely check out and add to
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money,
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:29 PM, olivier auber
>>> <olivierauber2 at gmail.com <mailto:olivierauber2 at gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ok!
>>>
>>> J'oubliais, La Théorie Relative de la Monnaie (TRM) est
>>> la base du développement du
>>>
>>>
>>> Open-Universal Digital Currency project
>>>
>>> http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
>>>
>>> Et ça c'est en anglais, entre autres...
>>>
>>>
>>> Olivier
>>>
>>> 2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>>
>>>
>>> thanks a lot Olivier, if you hear from the english
>>> translation at some point, thanks for letting me know!
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:19 PM, olivier auber
>>> <olivierauber2 at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:olivierauber2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Bonjour matinal Michel,
>>>
>>> Sur ce sujet, j'attire ton attention sur un
>>> auteur français à l'origine d'une très
>>> intéressante "théorie relative de la monnaie"
>>> qui permet de calculer très exactement
>>> différentes choses, notamment l'expansion de la
>>> masse monétaire conduisant à une économie
>>> durable, ainsi que le montant du Dividende
>>> Universel qui serait le vecteur de cette expansion.
>>>
>>> Il s'appelle Stéphane Laborde.
>>>
>>> Le livre est ici :
>>> http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.html
>>> Le blog là : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/
>>>
>>> Malheureusement, tout cela n'existe qu'en
>>> français pour le moment.
>>> Un traduction en anglais est en cours, je crois.
>>>
>>> Amicalement
>>>
>>> Olivier
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:michelsub2004 at gmail.com>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Sepp,
>>>
>>> because the discussion is largely technical,
>>> this is all I can do, but perhaps you can
>>> add an extra comment?
>>>
>>> also, if you are in contact with Marc,
>>> please give him a chance to say something
>>> about the evolution of the bibo project
>>> since december 2009,
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>
>>> <http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=13869>
>>>
>>> photo of Michel Bauwens
>>> Michel Bauwens
>>> 16th February 2011
>>>
>>> In December 2009, Sepp Hasslberger
>>> introduced to us Bibo, a proposed standard
>>> for stable currencies, that would replace
>>> the current inherently unstable banking
>>> money system.
>>>
>>> This article has become our most comment
>>> rich article, in particular through a
>>> recurring debate between one of the Bibo
>>> co-authors Marc, and Ardeshir Mehta.
>>>
>>> Ardeshir has written an article that
>>> challenges one of the main points of
>>> monetary reformers, i.e. that the current
>>> system leads to the infinite creation of
>>> debt through compound interest.
>>>
>>> You can find it here
>>> <http://homepage.mac.com/ardeshir/DebunkingTheDebt-VirusHypothesis.html>.
>>>
>>> The context:
>>>
>>> /“Currently, most if not all money is loaned
>>> into existence by banks, and is thus based
>>> on interest-bearing debt. There is no
>>> question that neither interest nor
>>> debt-based money are good for society, and I
>>> have written denouncing both debt and
>>> interest elsewhere. However, there is a
>>> fairly common thesis, based on the fact that
>>> money is loaned into existence as
>>> interest-bearing debt, that if new loans are
>>> not continually being issued in
>>> ever-increasing amounts, enough money will
>>> not be created to pay the interest on
>>> existing loans; and as a result, at least
>>> some those loans will be defaulted upon,
>>> resulting in inevitable foreclosures. “/
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> --
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>>> 0675038880
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
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