[P2P-F] An update on BIBO, financial stability standards, and the debt-virus hypothesis
Sepp Hasslberger
sepp at lastrega.com
Wed Feb 9 22:07:49 CET 2011
Stephane,
In cosmology, expansion and especially super-fast expansion of space at the time of the big bang is theorized, just as the big bang itself is theorized, but that does not mean either one of it actually happened. I am not a believer in either the big bang nor in expansion theory.
In the economy, inflation may be what we have had many times in the past, and what we also have today, but that does not make it right - in my view - to design a currency that will lead to constant inflation by its very design, especially when it would be easy to avoid that.
I can see that the constant emission of new money by every participant would tend to counter-act the effects of inflation on the individuals who are participating, but I do believe that prices should not be going up routinely just because our monetary system is not designed to be stable.
Kind regards
Sepp
"The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition"
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.
On Feb 9, 2011, at 9:03 PM, Stéphane Laborde wrote:
> I'm afraid you think as classical economics fail as well as Newton fails in front of Einstein.
>
> Sapce Inflate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_%28cosmology%29
>
> Why ? If not gravitation would have collapse all energy in a big black hole...
>
> For the same reason there is no problem with money inflation. There is only problem when it is a CENTER who inflate the money to a benefice of a little part of population, and no compensation to others.
>
> Prices don't go high when creativity create new goods. But when creativity create new goods, and money is CENTRALISED, then exchanges are not possible, and the inflation CENTER take all the old and new goods for itself.
>
> Another extremely important point is the CHANGE of generation on earth. Money creation HAS NO RIGHT to be done by a generation without the next one. Every human paticipate in the money system. Present and future members.
>
> So to be faire with all members present of future the RELATIVE part of money SHOULD BE THE SAME for all time.
>
> That is to say dm / m = Constant in time.
>
> Easy college mathematic problem => M(t) = M(0) Exp (c*t)
>
> Which "c" is ok ?
>
> Given a life expectancy of "ev" for a population, the relative sum of money created for each member should be the same during his all life =>
>
> Sum ( t0 -> t0+ev) Exp (ct) = 99%
>
> Is ok for an ev = 80 years with c = ln (100) / ev => c = 5,75% / year
>
> All this is part of the demonstration of Relative Money Theory : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.html
>
> It is also compatible with reality : http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_EZMGVwURo3M/ScB_j8V3yWI/AAAAAAAAA2E/ipvj1Y0u9y4/s400/ScreenHunter_002v2-734356.gif
>
> And GOLD or ANY FIXED MONEY is a great MISSANDERSTOOD of the nature of RELATIVE NATURE OF THE UNIVERSE : http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=fr&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.creationmonetaire.info%2F2010%2F09%2Flor-son-plus-haut-historique-vraiment.html
>
> The problem IS NOT inflation of money which is ok SINCE 10 000 YEARS. The problem is when it is a CENTER OF EMISSION who do it privating people of FREE EXCHANGE with the UNIVERSAL TOOL, that money represents.
> Stéphane Laborde
> 9, rue Ganneron, 75018 PARIS
> Tel. 09 54 87 03 18
> Mobile : 06 64 42 25 99
>
> Le 09/02/2011 20:22, Sepp Hasslberger a écrit :
>>
>> Dear Michel, Stephane,
>>
>> I have looked at the English introduction pages, unfortunately my French is not good enough to understand something fairly technical and complex.
>>
>> While I am happy to see that there is a universal dividend incorporated into this money system, I am not sure that it will work. As far as I can understand, there is monthly money creation by all members of the system, and with time the monetary mass will grow, actually the graphic for growth of monetary mass assuming a fixed number of members on this page
>>
>> http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
>>
>> shows that there is a rather steep increase of the monetary mass, all serving the same number of members. This means that the currency will be inflationary by design. More money for the same amount of business means that products, or anything that is exchanged in this economy, will come to cost more and more as time passes. One could also say that each unit of money will be worth less and less as time passes. This is not a good basis for a monetary system.
>>
>> It would be rather easy however, to engineer the system for price stability. All that would need to be done is for the money to be created with a date of expiry. Each unit on monetary value, once it has been created, would need to start losing some of its nominal value every month, until it expires (has no more value) at the end of a period to be determined. This would make sure that the monetary mass could be stable in the case of a fixed number of members. After the period of initialization, money created equals money lost to expiry. No inflation of prices would ensue, because the monetary mass stays constant. Such a mechanism would also mean that the monetary mass could grow in line with a growing number of members. The total monetary mass would thus depend on the number of participants, and prices in the system would tend to be stable.
>>
>> Without such a mechanism, I am afraid the system would not be workable. Money, to be used for real commerce, should have reasonably stable value over time. Only by limiting the total monetary mass in accordance with the number of members, can this goal be reached.
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Sepp
>>
>>
>>
>> "The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition"
>>
>> http://www.newmediaexplorer..org/sepp/
>> http://www.laleva.org
>> http://blog.hasslberger.com/
>> http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger
>> http://twitter.com/healthsupreme
>>
>> .
>>
>> On Feb 8, 2011, at 7:05 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
>>
>>> Many thanks Stephane,
>>>
>>> I have created a overview page at http://p2pfoundation.net/Open-Universal_Digital_Currency_Project
>>>
>>> Dear Sepp, could you have a look, present this project and eventually put it into context of other projects in this related space?
>>>
>>> I think the innovative part here is that it is directly linked to the mechanism of the universal dividend, and this is why it's particularly worth supporting,
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Stéphane Laborde <laborde_stephane at yahoo.fr> wrote:
>>> You can present Open-UDC with :
>>>
>>> General presentation : http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
>>>
>>> And Money Rules : http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules
>>>
>>> You can add that Open-UDC go with a a progressive goal following three steps :
>>>
>>> 1) Implementation with centralised server
>>> 2) Implementation with hierarchical organisation
>>> 3) Implementation with P2P System
>>>
>>> Money rules are a money system named Open-UDC. The technical system in charge of the money rules is independant of Open-UDC and named Open-UDS.
>>> Stéphane Laborde
>>> 9, rue Ganneron, 75018 PARIS
>>> Tel. 09 54 87 03 18
>>> Mobile : 06 64 42 25 99
>>>
>>> Le 08/02/2011 06:36, Michel Bauwens a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Cher Stephane,
>>>>
>>>> If you have any non-technical text on this, I'd like to announce it on the p2p foundation blog,
>>>>
>>>> Un grand merci!
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> didn't know that one! will definitely check out and add to http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money,
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:29 PM, olivier auber <olivierauber2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Ok!
>>>>
>>>> J'oubliais, La Théorie Relative de la Monnaie (TRM) est la base du développement du
>>>> Open-Universal Digital Currency project
>>>>
>>>> http://www.open-udc.org/en/start
>>>>
>>>> Et ça c'est en anglais, entre autres...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Olivier
>>>>
>>>> 2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>>> thanks a lot Olivier, if you hear from the english translation at some point, thanks for letting me know!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:19 PM, olivier auber <olivierauber2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Bonjour matinal Michel,
>>>>
>>>> Sur ce sujet, j'attire ton attention sur un auteur français à l'origine d'une très intéressante "théorie relative de la monnaie" qui permet de calculer très exactement différentes choses, notamment l'expansion de la masse monétaire conduisant à une économie durable, ainsi que le montant du Dividende Universel qui serait le vecteur de cette expansion.
>>>>
>>>> Il s'appelle Stéphane Laborde.
>>>>
>>>> Le livre est ici : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.html
>>>> Le blog là : http://www.creationmonetaire.info/
>>>>
>>>> Malheureusement, tout cela n'existe qu'en français pour le moment.
>>>> Un traduction en anglais est en cours, je crois.
>>>>
>>>> Amicalement
>>>>
>>>> Olivier
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2011/2/8 Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Sepp,
>>>>
>>>> because the discussion is largely technical, this is all I can do, but perhaps you can add an extra comment?
>>>>
>>>> also, if you are in contact with Marc, please give him a chance to say something about the evolution of the bibo project since december 2009,
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michel Bauwens
>>>> 16th February 2011
>>>>
>>>> In December 2009, Sepp Hasslberger introduced to us Bibo, a proposed standard for stable currencies, that would replace the current inherently unstable banking money system.
>>>>
>>>> This article has become our most comment rich article, in particular through a recurring debate between one of the Bibo co-authors Marc, and Ardeshir Mehta.
>>>>
>>>> Ardeshir has written an article that challenges one of the main points of monetary reformers, i.e. that the current system leads to the infinite creation of debt through compound interest.
>>>>
>>>> You can find it here.
>>>>
>>>> The context:
>>>>
>>>> “Currently, most if not all money is loaned into existence by banks, and is thus based on interest-bearing debt. There is no question that neither interest nor debt-based money are good for society, and I have written denouncing both debt and interest elsewhere. However, there is a fairly common thesis, based on the fact that money is loaned into existence as interest-bearing debt, that if new loans are not continually being issued in ever-increasing amounts, enough money will not be created to pay the interest on existing loans; and as a result, at least some those loans will be defaulted upon, resulting in inevitable foreclosures. “
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> --
>>>> Olivier Auber
>>>> 0675038880
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> Olivier Auber
>>>> 0675038880
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>>>>
>>>> Aucun virus trouvé dans ce message.
>>>> Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
>>>> Version: 10.0.1204 / Base de données virale: 1435/3428 - Date: 07/02/2011
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> Aucun virus trouvé dans ce message.
>> Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
>> Version: 10.0.1204 / Base de données virale: 1435/3432 - Date: 09/02/2011
>>
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