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I've only taken a cursory look at the website but it seems that
there is no solid underlying rationale that assures <b>reciprocity</b>,
which is basic objective of any monetary system/currency--give as
much value as you get over a reasonably short period of time.<br>
<br>
I am an advocate of a universal dividend but it is not something
that should be incorporated into an exchange (money) system. <br>
Any dividend must be allocated out of the aggregate production and
accumulated wealth of a community, which is something that is NOT
reflected in the supply of exchange media (money).<br>
<br>
Anyone who has read my latest book, <i>The End of Money</i>, should
realize that the amount of money outstanding (total credits or
debits in a credit clearing system) is determined by the amount of
trading, not by the number of participants. It is the total amount
of credit that has been extended by sellers to buyers that has not
yet been cleared by those buyers having reciprocated by selling. The
supply of "money" (credit) outstanding, therefore, is automatically
determined by the needs of the traders, increasing and decreasing in
accordance with transaction (economic) activity.<br>
There must, of course be limits on the amount of credit that can be
granted to each account, those limits being determined mainly by the
sales history of each account.. <br>
<br>
E.C. Riegel is quite eloquent in expressing the fundamental
principles. I wish more people would read his books.<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Thomas H. Greco, Jr.
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:thg@mindspring.com">thg@mindspring.com</a>
Mobile phone: +66 852 139 650 Thailand
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.Reinventingmoney.com">http://www.Reinventingmoney.com</a>
Blogs: Beyond Money: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://beyondmoney.net">http://beyondmoney.net</a>
Tom's News and Views: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com">http://tomazgreco.wordpress.com</a>
Photo gallery: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg">http://picasaweb.google.com/tomazhg</a>
Skype/Twitter name: tomazgreco
My latest book, "The End of Money and the Future of Civilization" from
Chelsea Green Publishers is now in print and can be ordered from Chelsea
Green Publishing or Amazon.com.
</pre>
<br>
On 02/09/2011 12:22 PM, Sepp Hasslberger wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:E17666BC-4760-4B1E-A2A4-C82AF87ACE95@lastrega.com"
type="cite">Dear Michel, Stephane,�
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have looked at the English introduction pages,
unfortunately my French is not good enough to understand
something fairly technical and complex.�</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>While I am happy to see that there is a universal dividend
incorporated into this money system, I am not sure that it will
work. As far as I can understand, there is monthly money
creation by all members of the system, and with time the
monetary mass will grow, actually the graphic for growth of
monetary mass assuming a fixed number of members on this page</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules">http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>shows that there is a rather steep increase of the monetary
mass, all serving the same number of members. This means that
the currency will be inflationary by design. More money for the
same amount of business means that products, or anything that is
exchanged in this economy, will come to cost more and more as
time passes. One could also say that each unit of money will be
worth less and less as time passes.�This is not a good basis for
a monetary system.�</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It would be rather �easy however, to engineer the system for
price stability. All that would need to be done is for the money
to be created with a date of expiry. Each unit on monetary
value, once it has been created, would need to start losing some
of its nominal value every month, until it expires (has no more
value) at the end of a period to be determined. This would make
sure that the monetary mass could be stable in the case of a
fixed number of members. After the period of initialization,
money created equals money lost to expiry. No inflation of
prices would ensue, because the monetary mass stays constant.
Such a mechanism would also mean that the monetary mass could
grow in line with a growing number of members. The total
monetary mass would thus depend on the number of participants,
and prices in the system would tend to be stable.�</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Without such a mechanism, I am afraid the system would not be
workable. Money, to be used for real commerce, should have
reasonably stable value over time. Only by limiting the total
monetary mass in accordance with the number of members, can this
goal be reached.�</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kind regards</div>
<div>Sepp</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
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<div style="margin: 0px; font: 16px
Helvetica; min-height: 19px;"><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="font-size: medium;"><font
class="Apple-style-span"
size="4"><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="font-size: 16px;">
<div style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 20px;"><b><i>"The
individual is supreme
and finds the way
through intuition"</i></b></div>
<div style="margin: 0px;
font: 19px Helvetica;
min-height: 19px;"><br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 24px;"><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="font-size: 20px;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/">http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/</a></span>��</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;
font-size: 20px;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.laleva.org">http://www.laleva.org</a></div>
<div style="margin: 0px;
font: 23px Helvetica;
min-height: 19px;"><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="font-size: 20px;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://blog.hasslberger.com/">http://blog.hasslberger.com/</a></span>�</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;
font: 20px Helvetica;
min-height: 19px;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger">http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger</a></div>
<div style="margin: 0px;
font: 20px Helvetica;
min-height: 19px;">
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://twitter.com/healthsupreme">http://twitter.com/healthsupreme</a></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;
font: 20px Helvetica;
min-height: 19px;"><br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px;
font: 20px Helvetica;
min-height: 19px;">.</div>
</span></font></span></div>
</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Feb 8, 2011, at 7:05 AM, Michel Bauwens wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">Many thanks Stephane,<br>
<br>
I have created a overview page at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Open-Universal_Digital_Currency_Project">http://p2pfoundation.net/Open-Universal_Digital_Currency_Project</a><br>
<br>
Dear Sepp, could you have a look, present this project and
eventually put it into context of other projects in this
related space?<br>
<br>
I think the innovative part here is that it is directly
linked to the mechanism of the universal dividend, and this
is why it's particularly worth supporting,<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:45 PM,
St�phane Laborde <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:laborde_stephane@yahoo.fr">laborde_stephane@yahoo.fr</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> You can present
Open-UDC with :<br>
<br>
General presentation : <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.open-udc.org/en/start"
target="_blank">http://www.open-udc.org/en/start</a><br>
<br>
And Money Rules : <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules"
target="_blank">http://www.open-udc.org/en/money_rules</a><br>
<br>
You can add that Open-UDC go with a a progressive goal
following three steps :<br>
<br>
1) Implementation with centralised server<br>
2) Implementation with hierarchical organisation<br>
3) Implementation with P2P System<br>
<br>
Money rules are a money system named Open-UDC. The
technical system in charge of the money rules is
independant of Open-UDC and named Open-UDS.<br>
<pre cols="72">St�phane Laborde
9, rue Ganneron, 75018 PARIS
Tel. 09 54 87 03 18
Mobile : 06 64 42 25 99</pre>
<br>
Le 08/02/2011 06:36, Michel Bauwens a �crit�:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="h5">Cher Stephane,<br>
<br>
If you have any non-technical text on this, I'd
like to announce it on the p2p foundation blog,<br>
<br>
Un grand merci!<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at
12:34 PM, Michel Bauwens <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail..com"
target="_blank">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:
0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">didn't
know that one! will definitely check out and
add to <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money"
target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net/Category:Money</a>,<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
Michel</font>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 8,
2011 at 12:29 PM, olivier auber <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:olivierauber2@gmail.com"
target="_blank">olivierauber2@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;
border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204,
204); padding-left: 1ex;">Ok!<br>
<br>
J'oubliais, La Th�orie Relative de
la Monnaie (TRM) est la base du
d�veloppement du <br>
<h1>Open-Universal Digital Currency
project</h1>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.open-udc.org/en/start"
target="_blank">http://www.open-udc.org/en/start</a><br>
<br>
Et �a c'est en anglais, entre
autres...
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
Olivier<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2011/2/8
Michel Bauwens <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com"
target="_blank">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px
solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">thanks a
lot Olivier, if you hear
from the english translation
at some point, thanks for
letting me know!
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On
Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at
12:19 PM, olivier
auber <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:olivierauber2@gmail.com"
target="_blank">olivierauber2@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0pt
0pt 0pt 0.8ex;
border-left: 1px
solid rgb(204, 204,
204); padding-left:
1ex;">Bonjour
matinal Michel,<br>
<br>
Sur ce sujet,
j'attire ton
attention sur un
auteur fran�ais �
l'origine d'une tr�s
int�ressante
"th�orie relative de
la monnaie" qui
permet de calculer
tr�s exactement
diff�rentes choses,
notamment
l'expansion de la
masse mon�taire
conduisant � une
�conomie durable,
ainsi que le montant
du Dividende
Universel qui serait
le vecteur de cette
expansion.<br>
<br>
Il s'appelle
St�phane Laborde.<br>
<br>
Le livre est ici : <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.html"
target="_blank">http://www.creationmonetaire.info/2010/11/theorie-relative-de-la-monnaie-10.html</a><br>
Le blog l� : <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.creationmonetaire.info/" target="_blank">http://www.creationmonetaire.info/</a><br>
<br>
Malheureusement,
tout cela n'existe
qu'en fran�ais pour
le moment.<br>
Un traduction en
anglais est en
cours, je crois.<br>
<br>
Amicalement<br>
<br>
Olivier<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">2011/2/8
Michel Bauwens <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com"
target="_blank">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:
0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex;
border-left: 1px
solid rgb(204,
204, 204);
padding-left:
1ex;">
<div>
<div> <br>
Dear Sepp,<br>
<br>
because the
discussion is
largely
technical,
this is all I
can do, but
perhaps you
can add an
extra comment?<br>
<br>
also, if you
are in contact
with Marc,
please give
him a chance
to say
something
about the
evolution of
the bibo
project since
december 2009,<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<p><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/?p=13869" rel="bookmark"
title="Permanent
Link to An
update on
BIBO,
financial
stability
standards, and
the debt-virus
hypothesis"
target="_blank"><br>
</a></p>
<img
moz-do-not-send="true"
src="x-msg://159/" alt="photo of Michel Bauwens" align="left">
<div>Michel
Bauwens</div>
<div>16th
February 2011</div>
<br>
<p>In December
2009, Sepp
Hasslberger <a
moz-do-not-send="true">introduced to us</a> Bibo, a proposed standard
for stable
currencies,
that would
replace the
current
inherently
unstable
banking money
system.</p>
<p>This
article has
become our
most comment
rich article,
in particular
through a
recurring
debate between
one of the
Bibo
co-authors
Marc, and
Ardeshir
Mehta.</p>
<p>Ardeshir
has written an
article that
challenges one
of the main
points of
monetary
reformers,
i.e. that the
current system
leads to the
infinite
creation of
debt through
compound
interest.</p>
<p>You can
find it <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://homepage.mac.com/ardeshir/DebunkingTheDebt-VirusHypothesis.html"
target="_blank">here</a>.</p>
<p>The
context:</p>
<p><i>�Currently,
most if not
all money is
loaned into
existence by
banks, and is
thus based on
interest-bearing
debt. There is
no question
that neither
interest nor
debt-based
money are good
for society,
and I have
written
denouncing
both debt and
interest
elsewhere.
However, there
is a fairly
common thesis,
based on the
fact that
money is
loaned into
existence as
interest-bearing
debt, that if
new loans are
not
continually
being issued
in
ever-increasing
amounts,
enough money
will not be
created to pay
the interest
on existing
loans; and as
a result, at
least some
those loans
will be
defaulted
upon,
resulting in
inevitable
foreclosures.
�</i></p>
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<font
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<br>
-- <br>
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0675038880<br>
</font></blockquote>
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href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a>
<br>
<br>
Connect: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>;
Discuss: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
<br>
Updates: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</a>;
<a
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href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</a>;
<a
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href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>;
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<br>
Commons Strategies
Group, <a
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href="http://www.commonsstrategies.org/" target="_blank">http://www.commonsstrategies.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<font color="#888888">-- <br>
Olivier Auber<br>
0675038880<br>
</font></blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
P2P Foundation: <a
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href="http://p2pfoundation.net/"
target="_blank"><font color="red"><b>MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "p2pfoundation.net" claiming to be</b></font> http://p2pfoundation..net</a>�
- <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/"
target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a>
<br>
<br>
Connect: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/"
target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>;
Discuss: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
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Updates: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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target="_blank"><font color="red"><b>MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.facebook.com" claiming to be</b></font> http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens</a><br>
<br>
Commons Strategies Group, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.commonsstrategies.org/"
target="_blank">http://www.commonsstrategies.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
P2P Foundation: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://p2pfoundation.net/"
target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>�
- <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/"
target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a>
<br>
<br>
Connect: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/"
target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>;
Discuss: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
<br>
Updates: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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target="_blank"><font color="red"><b>MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "www.facebook.com" claiming to be</b></font> http://www.facebook..com/mbauwens</a><br>
<br>
Commons Strategies Group, <a
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href="http://www.commonsstrategies.org/"
target="_blank">http://www.commonsstrategies.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<hr>
<hr noshade="noshade" size="1">
<p color="#000000" align="left">Aucun virus trouv�
dans ce message.<br>
Analyse effectu�e par AVG - <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.avg.fr/"
target="_blank">www.avg.fr</a><br>
Version: 10.0.1204 / Base de donn�es virale:
1435/3428 - Date: 07/02/2011</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
P2P Foundation: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://p2pfoundation.net/" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a>�
- <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a>
<br>
<br>
Connect: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>;
Discuss: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation"
target="_blank">http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
<br>
Updates: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
<br>
Commons Strategies Group, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.commonsstrategies.org/">http://www.commonsstrategies.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
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