[P2P-F] Analytical marxism, John Roemer and equality of opportunity

Wed Dec 28 23:57:30 CET 2011

Thanks for the tip Michel. I googled it before but I am reluctant  to any
theory that talks about spirituality or metaphysics. Maybe I am prejudiced.
I am ,though, a fun of Jon kabat-zinn and his meditation teachings because
,despite being insired by buddhism, he uses scientific methods.

I havent read any of roemers work yet, but I still believe that using
analytical methods, abstractions etc is a valuable tool that most marxists
dont use out of fear.

To make it more precise, if someone proves in an abstraction which doesnt
take into account the superstructure or the reasons why people want what
they want and where each person is represented by an utility function, that
exploitation arises naturally due to the basic axiom of owning the products
of his labor, then that proof will be a much stronger argument against this
opressive system than any philosophical or sociological argument.

2011/12/27 Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>

> hi Apostolis,
>
> are you familiar with integral methodologies,
>
> these allow for temporary reductionisms, to see what they can yield, but
> always go back to the integrative interpretations in a more holistic fashion
>
> in contrast to staying with a reductionist approach and claiming it
> represents reality,
>
> Michel
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 1:51 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
> xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> First, let me say that I just learned about rational choice theory and so
>> it will be my interpretation of it that I will defend.
>>
>> It is important to deferentiate the theory and its results from the
>> interpretation of the results. To this end, all your arguments refute
>> interpretations that most of the time were malevolently made to moralize
>> the unfair status quo.
>>
>> Evolutionary biology for example is a good science but it has been
>> brutalized by many. We need to use the results, not discard them.
>>
>> But I have to take back what i said about analytical marxism replacing
>> marxism.
>>
>> I can argue though that analytical Marxism is to Marxism what mathematics
>> is to physics.
>> The methodology of physicists is incomprehensive to me and my methodology
>> is to them. But physics needs math and math needs physics for too many
>> reasons.
>>
>> Physicists never stopped using math because some mathematician believe in
>> idealism. Neither have mathematicians stopped taking intuition from the
>> work of physicists because some physicists believe in empiricism.
>>
>>
>> In conclution, analytical marxism doesnt strip human agency from
>> structures and relations. It simply avoids to deal with the problem simply
>> because the tools that analytical marxism uses are not able to solve it. Do
>> you know that physicists right now use tools that are rejected by
>> mathematicians simply because they dont have a logical framework to put
>> them in?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2011/12/26 Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
>>
>>> hi Apostolis,
>>>
>>> my impression is that the last 20 years, if not more, of critical
>>> economic (and philosophical) thinking have been to undermine rational
>>> choice theory in all sorts of ways ...  and I personally don't know anybody
>>> that acts purely rationally, (and if he/she did, I would see it as a sign
>>> of pathology), if that is taken as the essence of rational theory; in my
>>> view, it strips human agency of all kinds of crucial embeddeness in
>>> structures and relations.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
>>> xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just found him. His methodology seems very similar to mine. He also
>>>> has an interest to equality of opportunity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_Marxism
>>>>  Exploitation
>>>>
>>>> At the same time as Cohen was working on *Karl Marx's Theory of History
>>>> *, American economist John Roemer was employing neoclassical economics
>>>> in order to try to defend the Marxist concepts of exploitation<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploitation>
>>>> and class <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class>. In his *General
>>>> Theory of Exploitation and Class* (1982), Roemer employed rational
>>>> choice <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice> and game theory<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory> in
>>>> order to demonstrate how exploitation and class relations may arise in the
>>>> development of a market for labour. Roemer would go on to reject the idea
>>>> that the labour theory of value<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_theory_of_value> was
>>>> necessary for explaining exploitation and class. Value was in principle
>>>> capable of being explained in terms of any class of commodity inputs, such
>>>> as oil, wheat, etc., rather than being exclusively explained by embodied
>>>> labour power. Roemer was led to the conclusion that exploitation and class
>>>> were thus generated not in the sphere of production but of market exchange.
>>>> Significantly, as a purely technical category, exploitation did not always
>>>> imply a moral wrong (see section Justice<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_Marxism#Justice>
>>>>  below).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am unfamiliar with his beliefs. I for example believe that the
>>>> ownership of the means of production are those that create trading routes
>>>> that allow the market exchange to magnify wealth inequality. I am uncertain
>>>> though as to who is the victim of exploitation. I think that dependent on
>>>> the ocassion both the consumer and the workers could be exploited.
>>>>
>>>> Even If it turns out that I disagree with him, He uses rationale choice
>>>> theory to explain things like I do.
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wonder what happened to this school of thought, most importantly why
>>>> it hasnt replaced marxism all together. I dont think that this theory is
>>>> plagued with revisionism, It isnt difficult to avoid determinism while you
>>>> keep using mathematical models. it has in fact better more concrete
>>>> foundations than before.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>
>>>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Sincerely yours,
>>
>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>
>>
>>
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-- 

Sincerely yours,

     Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
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