[P2P-F] Analytical marxism, John Roemer and equality of opportunity

Tue Dec 27 07:59:40 CET 2011

hi Apostolis,

are you familiar with integral methodologies,

these allow for temporary reductionisms, to see what they can yield, but
always go back to the integrative interpretations in a more holistic fashion

in contrast to staying with a reductionist approach and claiming it
represents reality,

Michel

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 1:51 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:

> First, let me say that I just learned about rational choice theory and so
> it will be my interpretation of it that I will defend.
>
> It is important to deferentiate the theory and its results from the
> interpretation of the results. To this end, all your arguments refute
> interpretations that most of the time were malevolently made to moralize
> the unfair status quo.
>
> Evolutionary biology for example is a good science but it has been
> brutalized by many. We need to use the results, not discard them.
>
> But I have to take back what i said about analytical marxism replacing
> marxism.
>
> I can argue though that analytical Marxism is to Marxism what mathematics
> is to physics.
> The methodology of physicists is incomprehensive to me and my methodology
> is to them. But physics needs math and math needs physics for too many
> reasons.
>
> Physicists never stopped using math because some mathematician believe in
> idealism. Neither have mathematicians stopped taking intuition from the
> work of physicists because some physicists believe in empiricism.
>
>
> In conclution, analytical marxism doesnt strip human agency from
> structures and relations. It simply avoids to deal with the problem simply
> because the tools that analytical marxism uses are not able to solve it. Do
> you know that physicists right now use tools that are rejected by
> mathematicians simply because they dont have a logical framework to put
> them in?
>
>
>
>
> 2011/12/26 Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
>
>> hi Apostolis,
>>
>> my impression is that the last 20 years, if not more, of critical
>> economic (and philosophical) thinking have been to undermine rational
>> choice theory in all sorts of ways ...  and I personally don't know anybody
>> that acts purely rationally, (and if he/she did, I would see it as a sign
>> of pathology), if that is taken as the essence of rational theory; in my
>> view, it strips human agency of all kinds of crucial embeddeness in
>> structures and relations.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
>> xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I just found him. His methodology seems very similar to mine. He also
>>> has an interest to equality of opportunity.
>>>
>>>
>>> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_Marxism
>>>  Exploitation
>>>
>>> At the same time as Cohen was working on *Karl Marx's Theory of History*,
>>> American economist John Roemer was employing neoclassical economics in
>>> order to try to defend the Marxist concepts of exploitation<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploitation>
>>> and class <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class>. In his *General
>>> Theory of Exploitation and Class* (1982), Roemer employed rational
>>> choice <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice> and game theory<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory> in
>>> order to demonstrate how exploitation and class relations may arise in the
>>> development of a market for labour. Roemer would go on to reject the idea
>>> that the labour theory of value<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_theory_of_value> was
>>> necessary for explaining exploitation and class. Value was in principle
>>> capable of being explained in terms of any class of commodity inputs, such
>>> as oil, wheat, etc., rather than being exclusively explained by embodied
>>> labour power. Roemer was led to the conclusion that exploitation and class
>>> were thus generated not in the sphere of production but of market exchange.
>>> Significantly, as a purely technical category, exploitation did not always
>>> imply a moral wrong (see section Justice<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_Marxism#Justice>
>>>  below).
>>>
>>>
>>> I am unfamiliar with his beliefs. I for example believe that the
>>> ownership of the means of production are those that create trading routes
>>> that allow the market exchange to magnify wealth inequality. I am uncertain
>>> though as to who is the victim of exploitation. I think that dependent on
>>> the ocassion both the consumer and the workers could be exploited.
>>>
>>> Even If it turns out that I disagree with him, He uses rationale choice
>>> theory to explain things like I do.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory
>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder what happened to this school of thought, most importantly why
>>> it hasnt replaced marxism all together. I dont think that this theory is
>>> plagued with revisionism, It isnt difficult to avoid determinism while you
>>> keep using mathematical models. it has in fact better more concrete
>>> foundations than before.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>
>>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
>
>
> Sincerely yours,
>
>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>
>
>
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