[P2P-F] Analytical marxism, John Roemer and equality of opportunity

Thu Dec 29 11:14:07 CET 2011

Integral theory doesn't necessarily entail a spiritual aspect,

for example, in Critical Realism, one of the integral schools, a lot of
practicioners stay at the particular point in Bhaskar's evolution when he
started paying attention to spirituality. The most important aspect is its
subjective-objective component, i.e. strong refusal of any reductionist
approaches that deny the full richness of human society and individuality,

Michel

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 5:57 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the tip Michel. I googled it before but I am reluctant  to any
> theory that talks about spirituality or metaphysics. Maybe I am prejudiced.
> I am ,though, a fun of Jon kabat-zinn and his meditation teachings because
> ,despite being insired by buddhism, he uses scientific methods.
>
> I havent read any of roemers work yet, but I still believe that using
> analytical methods, abstractions etc is a valuable tool that most marxists
> dont use out of fear.
>
> To make it more precise, if someone proves in an abstraction which doesnt
> take into account the superstructure or the reasons why people want what
> they want and where each person is represented by an utility function, that
> exploitation arises naturally due to the basic axiom of owning the products
> of his labor, then that proof will be a much stronger argument against this
> opressive system than any philosophical or sociological argument.
>
>
> 2011/12/27 Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
>
>> hi Apostolis,
>>
>> are you familiar with integral methodologies,
>>
>> these allow for temporary reductionisms, to see what they can yield, but
>> always go back to the integrative interpretations in a more holistic fashion
>>
>> in contrast to staying with a reductionist approach and claiming it
>> represents reality,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 1:51 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
>> xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> First, let me say that I just learned about rational choice theory and
>>> so it will be my interpretation of it that I will defend.
>>>
>>> It is important to deferentiate the theory and its results from the
>>> interpretation of the results. To this end, all your arguments refute
>>> interpretations that most of the time were malevolently made to moralize
>>> the unfair status quo.
>>>
>>> Evolutionary biology for example is a good science but it has been
>>> brutalized by many. We need to use the results, not discard them.
>>>
>>> But I have to take back what i said about analytical marxism replacing
>>> marxism.
>>>
>>> I can argue though that analytical Marxism is to Marxism what
>>> mathematics is to physics.
>>> The methodology of physicists is incomprehensive to me and my
>>> methodology is to them. But physics needs math and math needs physics for
>>> too many reasons.
>>>
>>> Physicists never stopped using math because some mathematician believe
>>> in idealism. Neither have mathematicians stopped taking intuition from the
>>> work of physicists because some physicists believe in empiricism.
>>>
>>>
>>> In conclution, analytical marxism doesnt strip human agency from
>>> structures and relations. It simply avoids to deal with the problem simply
>>> because the tools that analytical marxism uses are not able to solve it. Do
>>> you know that physicists right now use tools that are rejected by
>>> mathematicians simply because they dont have a logical framework to put
>>> them in?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2011/12/26 Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
>>>
>>>> hi Apostolis,
>>>>
>>>> my impression is that the last 20 years, if not more, of critical
>>>> economic (and philosophical) thinking have been to undermine rational
>>>> choice theory in all sorts of ways ...  and I personally don't know anybody
>>>> that acts purely rationally, (and if he/she did, I would see it as a sign
>>>> of pathology), if that is taken as the essence of rational theory; in my
>>>> view, it strips human agency of all kinds of crucial embeddeness in
>>>> structures and relations.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
>>>> xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I just found him. His methodology seems very similar to mine. He also
>>>>> has an interest to equality of opportunity.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_Marxism
>>>>>  Exploitation
>>>>>
>>>>> At the same time as Cohen was working on *Karl Marx's Theory of
>>>>> History*, American economist John Roemer was employing neoclassical
>>>>> economics in order to try to defend the Marxist concepts of
>>>>> exploitation <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploitation>and class<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class>.
>>>>> In his *General Theory of Exploitation and Class* (1982), Roemer
>>>>> employed rational choice<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice>
>>>>>  and game theory <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory> in order
>>>>> to demonstrate how exploitation and class relations may arise in the
>>>>> development of a market for labour. Roemer would go on to reject the idea
>>>>> that the labour theory of value<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_theory_of_value> was
>>>>> necessary for explaining exploitation and class. Value was in principle
>>>>> capable of being explained in terms of any class of commodity inputs, such
>>>>> as oil, wheat, etc., rather than being exclusively explained by embodied
>>>>> labour power. Roemer was led to the conclusion that exploitation and class
>>>>> were thus generated not in the sphere of production but of market exchange.
>>>>> Significantly, as a purely technical category, exploitation did not always
>>>>> imply a moral wrong (see section Justice<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_Marxism#Justice>
>>>>>  below).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am unfamiliar with his beliefs. I for example believe that the
>>>>> ownership of the means of production are those that create trading routes
>>>>> that allow the market exchange to magnify wealth inequality. I am uncertain
>>>>> though as to who is the victim of exploitation. I think that dependent on
>>>>> the ocassion both the consumer and the workers could be exploited.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even If it turns out that I disagree with him, He uses rationale
>>>>> choice theory to explain things like I do.
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder what happened to this school of thought, most importantly why
>>>>> it hasnt replaced marxism all together. I dont think that this theory is
>>>>> plagued with revisionism, It isnt difficult to avoid determinism while you
>>>>> keep using mathematical models. it has in fact better more concrete
>>>>> foundations than before.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>>
>>>>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>
>>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
> --
>
>
> Sincerely yours,
>
>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>
>
>
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