[P2P-F] Your visions : Supporting some permanent p2p collectives to physically converge to ? ( Re: french-language p2p lecture )

Tue Dec 27 14:58:14 CET 2011

Thanks Michel for your reply.

In short, I found a first investor to buy a building in Leipzig,
to kickstart

http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project

I will need support to develop such approach, and will invite people
contributing to live there rent free.

Leipzig ( and more generally parts of Eastern Germany ) is relatively cheap
in european terms ( 100 euro square meter ), while having relatively good
infrastructure.
I see potential for scalability.

Till now, the process is slow - though I feel it can accelerate.

The longer version below...
I see other interesting conversations related to such approach on a
facebook group called "The Next Edge", and on which some people on this
list seem to participate.
( let me know if I can invite you to it )

///

Indeed, it is true that I have been fully engaged for many years, such as a
number of people on this list, maintaining a vision for an emergent
approach.

Thanks Marc for your understanding regarding the 24/7 space availability
importance, which I personally see as *aggregators* enabling emergent and
currently *VIABLE ( social and economic ) distributed systems.*

Yes, It is *already possible, with time, to individually have access to our
own options*, some which can be considered as 24/7 spaces. ( aka "homes" ),
while also knowing about places open part time ( universities, coworking
spaces, etc ) - this is, for me and for other people I am in touch
with, a *current
stage.*

In addition to this, there are *events* which enable *temporary convergences
*, and* online convergence spaces*, such as this mailing list,
and I wish to *understand how to further harness the potential of the
people each of us meet*, because... idealistically, I wish to meet each of
the people sharing such interests :) ... and enable, not only individual
options, but also* "emergent options".*

Now...

What I wish, is to make a 24/7 physical NETWORK of spaces available to each
of us , in a way for this space ( including financially ) , in a way that
can reduce our dependency on systems we do not wish to support, and without
requiring to adapt to any one specific collectivist culture, yet enabling a
local mesh of a plurality of cultures which are not closed on themselves
and can be open to individualist collaboration , enabling each to set their
own approach while having the choice to integrate ( or not ) with other's
protocols, and in a setting that enables easy connections to trans-regional
networks, in cities but in connection to the local countryside.

I visited many places and communities, experienced different cultures, over
the past years, and wish to integrate some practices I encountered into an
emergent synthesis.

I imagine several places could enable such kind of approach.
I think especially of places which are not too expensive, as to avoid
getting into debt.
Some of the approaches may have been discussed on p2pf lists.
I for example wish to buy where the land is cheap compared to the available
infrastructure, and then create our own value while avoiding financial
speculation on such creation, through a combination of commons and
cooperative approaches.

The revival of certain declining cities, in post-industrial frameworks,
provide some inspiration to me, which I can see as an approach to combine
various existing movements while enabling the creation of *viable complex
systems*.

A number of people on this list, a number of people we may be meeting, have
experience in such fields, and I wish for further convergence.

This is the *approach I am planning ( remotely )**, in Leipzig :*

http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project

A difficulty I face in an emergent process is to create engagement in
initial stages,
especially when I have no personal ( monetary ) resources,
and when my current access to shelter and living is far from the place I
wish to develop the intentional engagements for co-creating and sharing
viable economies.

I now* found an investor *for buying a 600 square meter building in Leipzig,
which is a first step for me to spend more time there and to invite people
to live there *without rent*,
progressively setting up with people speaking german other legal and
financial solutions to purchase our own flats ( in good condition, and with
a renovated roof ) within the city for one hundred euros a square meter (
100 euro / m2 )

I did build up small local networks of friends here in Brussels,
and am or have been connected to other communities - ecovillage, nomadbase,
etc
over the last 8 years.

What I express now is a further synthesis.
Not only a place to pass by, not only the potential for an isolated
collectivist space,
but a potential for a scalable regional economy converging various of the
practices and experiments we mention.

A european base for people sharing certain memes, a base where people can
purchase and develop their own usufruct infrastructure, while also having
access to mainstream existing infrastructures.

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 7:01 AM, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>wrote:

> hi Dante,
>
> as a knowledge commons community and due to personal limitations, I don't
> personally try to build physical collectives, and after five years, there
> is no sign of other people in our community doing this under p2p-f banners.
>
> However, more generally, there are thousands of p2p/commons oriented
> collectives already existing, including in Brussels, so it's a matter of
> choosing, and then committing yourself to contributing to it, and
> everything flows from there; or atlernatively, creating an initiative
> yourself.
>
> I have choosen to live in an extended kinship-based community here in
> Thailand and realize that I have never been happier than in this context,
> (my own communal experiments having been less than successfull)  and I then
> augment this intimacy based connection with intellectual community through
> p2p-f and the global emerging p2p/commons movement.
>
> I notice that you are pretty much asking the same questions as 5 years
> ago, perhaps you are reluctant to commit, and not really wanting what you
> say or think you want? Not sure what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure
> it's not an issue of lack of choice 'out there'. Perhaps you should
> contemplate an effort to 'construct' something, physical or virtual, beyond
> the nomadic approach (which can also be an internal attitude). I don't
> think it matters 'what' you construct, but 'that' you construct, and that
> through planting a flag in the ground, you allow others to align themselves
> to your values and actions. But p2p is essentially an object-oriented
> relationality, without shared object, it does not get off the ground.
>
> Michel
>
> Michel
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 7:50 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Michel
>>
>> Further below, some thoughts which stem out of this french lecture.
>>
>> I extend the lecture context as to delve into broad questions :
>>
>> - How to increase the potential to share and create with individuals who
>> attend the same events, when such events are too short in time to truly get
>> to know each other
>>
>> *- How to make it easier to introduce some people we meet,*
>> *to other people we may not yet know personally *within our
>> interconnected networks* , **based on shared interests, specific
>> objectives or geographical proximity ?*
>> *
>> *
>> *- How to do so in a way that enables a general appreciation of context
>> , and context building processes ? [5]*
>> *
>> *
>> *- If we get to know each other, how do we enable further engagement for
>> co-creation based on respective individual social and financial contexts ?
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> *- Do we have p2p physical places to go to, converge and experiment p2p
>> approaches, and get to know each other ?*
>> *Permanent p2p collectives ?*
>>
>> ///
>>
>> When listening to the lecture and questions asked by people attending it,
>> I realize there are very probably *people I could interact or
>> collaborate with.*
>>
>> Unfortunately, I was not in Paris for that specific seminar,
>> yet indirectly, I experience that *each of us can indirectly benefit
>> from the contacts other people in our networks make*
>>
>> When I go to seminars with people sharing interests,
>> it is *not always easy to get in touch personally* , especially when
>> there is no time for informal get to know's, or for art of hosting type of
>> approaches.
>>
>> *Lists such as this one are useful *- yet I can hear that *for some
>> people* ( including sometimes myself )* it represents an overflow of
>> information.*
>>
>> *Hence more specifically defined lists* or *information aggregation stemming
>> out* of more general ones ( can ) get *created around more specific
>> objectives*. *[1]*
>>
>> At some point ( around 1hour30-31 minutes ) , a lady asks if you are
>> connected to movements such as "Attac",
>> and *you reply that you stay open for dialogue with a variety of
>> backgrounds [2]** *
>>
>> Within such larger framework,
>> regarding strategies used* [3]* ,
>>
>> I realize that as an individual, though well connected,
>> I can find difficulties in finding approaches to not only interact but
>> share and* engage* together with other individuals who apply such
>> culture and approaches in their *daily lives*,
>> to build up such infrastructures of *interdependence beyond the immateria
>> *l - internet based exchanges.
>>
>> Some of the people I connected to in face to face interactions are on
>> this list.
>>  A number of us are spread across europe and/or the world.
>>
>> A variety of initiatives and environments exist *[4]*
>>
>> If Phyles related to some of our interconnected networks further emerge,
>> how do you imagine them ?
>>
>> Would you personally ( or other people on this list ? )
>> be interested in supporting "co-living - co-working" spaces ?
>>
>> Would we end up living together ?
>>
>> I realize living together , or at least have a physical convergence point
>> where to contribute to based on shared memes,
>> is important to me.  Yet till now I find initiatives and people spread
>> all over.
>>
>> Hence my interest in finding low cost ( kind of venture communist ? )
>> approaches to make infrastructure available,
>> as to enable contributions to local viable systems based on p2p
>> approaches.
>>
>> I d wish for p2p phyles to support such permanent p2p collective approach.
>>
>> Here is a suggestion : http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project
>>
>> I d like to provide people with such physical location to converge to, as
>> to facilitate the process of getting to know each other through
>> collaborating.
>>
>> I do remember, Michel, watching a video of an annex to your home in
>> Thailand, which you imagined could host such p2p friendly facilities.
>> Though I am also aware it may, for individuals such as me here in Europe,
>> be somewhat far.
>>
>> Is there anyone else interested in such approach, and what are (y)our
>> visions ?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>> *Foot Notes :*
>>
>> [1] and mapped as to see how they relate or stem out of each other ?
>>
>> *[2]* some who are more distributist, others more mutualist, but also
>> people from the right , etc and that you even go and talk to the catholic
>> church upon invitation from the pope.  You then further comment that
>> "indignados" and "occupymovements" may possibly relate more easily with the
>> p2p approach ( and ethos ? ) , yet that with the more traditional left you
>> may have felt more resistance, as some left wing backgrounds may remain
>> more conservative in their mode of thought then, as you noted, some profit
>> oriented backgrounds who stay open to new ( p2p ) ideas because of an
>> interest in finding new approaches to make money.
>>
>> *[3]* to facilitate potential through collaboration around shared
>> intentions,
>> and at the current stage of development
>>
>> * [4]* Ecovillages and other communities already exist, and can share a
>> number of subcultures brought up here on p2p lists.
>>
>> Fablabs are emerging , and can also bring people sharing such culture
>> together in an approach to be co-creative while increasing our autonomy
>> through choosing our interdependencies.
>>
>> For now, more Fablabs in urban centers ? And generally speaking, at the
>> moment still mostly available to a very specific elite of technicians and
>> progressive cultural researchers ? Yet possibly opening up , connecting to
>> community / co-working spaces, such as in Berlin :
>> http://opendesigncity.de/ ,
>> or initiated ( or funded ) by research backgrounds with the intention to
>> open up to the community, such as MIT's center for Bits and Atoms
>> http://fab.cba.mit.edu/ , such as this one
>> http://wiki.fablab.af/index.php/Main_Page
>>
>> *[5] *Holopticism ? http://www.slideshare.net/AlanRosenblith/holopticism
>>
>>
>>  On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 4:19 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>> michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Voici le lien vers la vidéo de votre intervention à La Cantine :
>>> http://lacantine.ubicast.eu/videos/webinar-16-12-2011-141701/
>>>
>>>
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>>
>
>
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