[P2P-F] Your visions : Supporting some permanent p2p collectives to physically converge to ? ( Re: french-language p2p lecture )

Tue Dec 27 15:14:43 CET 2011

great that you are making progress!

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 8:58 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Michel for your reply.
>
> In short, I found a first investor to buy a building in Leipzig,
> to kickstart
>
> http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project
>
> I will need support to develop such approach, and will invite people
> contributing to live there rent free.
>
> Leipzig ( and more generally parts of Eastern Germany ) is relatively
> cheap in european terms ( 100 euro square meter ), while having relatively
> good infrastructure.
> I see potential for scalability.
>
> Till now, the process is slow - though I feel it can accelerate.
>
> The longer version below...
> I see other interesting conversations related to such approach on a
> facebook group called "The Next Edge", and on which some people on this
> list seem to participate.
> ( let me know if I can invite you to it )
>
>
> ///
>
> Indeed, it is true that I have been fully engaged for many years, such as
> a number of people on this list, maintaining a vision for an emergent
> approach.
>
> Thanks Marc for your understanding regarding the 24/7 space availability
> importance, which I personally see as *aggregators* enabling emergent and
> currently *VIABLE ( social and economic ) distributed systems.*
>
> Yes, It is *already possible, with time, to individually have access to
> our own options*, some which can be considered as 24/7 spaces. ( aka
> "homes" ), while also knowing about places open part time ( universities,
> coworking spaces, etc ) - this is, for me and for other people I am in
> touch with, a *current stage.*
>
> In addition to this, there are *events* which enable *temporary
> convergences*, and* online convergence spaces*, such as this mailing list,
> and I wish to *understand how to further harness the potential of the
> people each of us meet*, because... idealistically, I wish to meet each
> of the people sharing such interests :) ... and enable, not only individual
> options, but also* "emergent options".*
>
> Now...
>
> What I wish, is to make a 24/7 physical NETWORK of spaces available to
> each of us , in a way for this space ( including financially ) , in a way
> that can reduce our dependency on systems we do not wish to support, and
> without requiring to adapt to any one specific collectivist culture, yet
> enabling a local mesh of a plurality of cultures which are not closed on
> themselves and can be open to individualist collaboration , enabling each
> to set their own approach while having the choice to integrate ( or not )
> with other's protocols, and in a setting that enables easy connections to
> trans-regional networks, in cities but in connection to the local
> countryside.
>
> I visited many places and communities, experienced different cultures,
> over the past years, and wish to integrate some practices I encountered
> into an emergent synthesis.
>
> I imagine several places could enable such kind of approach.
> I think especially of places which are not too expensive, as to avoid
> getting into debt.
> Some of the approaches may have been discussed on p2pf lists.
> I for example wish to buy where the land is cheap compared to the
> available infrastructure, and then create our own value while avoiding
> financial speculation on such creation, through a combination of commons
> and cooperative approaches.
>
> The revival of certain declining cities, in post-industrial frameworks,
> provide some inspiration to me, which I can see as an approach to combine
> various existing movements while enabling the creation of *viable complex
> systems*.
>
> A number of people on this list, a number of people we may be meeting,
> have experience in such fields, and I wish for further convergence.
>
> This is the *approach I am planning ( remotely )**, in Leipzig :*
>
> http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project
>
> A difficulty I face in an emergent process is to create engagement in
> initial stages,
> especially when I have no personal ( monetary ) resources,
> and when my current access to shelter and living is far from the place I
> wish to develop the intentional engagements for co-creating and sharing
> viable economies.
>
> I now* found an investor *for buying a 600 square meter building in
> Leipzig,
> which is a first step for me to spend more time there and to invite people
> to live there *without rent*,
> progressively setting up with people speaking german other legal and
> financial solutions to purchase our own flats ( in good condition, and with
> a renovated roof ) within the city for one hundred euros a square meter (
> 100 euro / m2 )
>
> I did build up small local networks of friends here in Brussels,
> and am or have been connected to other communities - ecovillage,
> nomadbase, etc
> over the last 8 years.
>
> What I express now is a further synthesis.
> Not only a place to pass by, not only the potential for an isolated
> collectivist space,
> but a potential for a scalable regional economy converging various of the
> practices and experiments we mention.
>
> A european base for people sharing certain memes, a base where people can
> purchase and develop their own usufruct infrastructure, while also having
> access to mainstream existing infrastructures.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 7:01 AM, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>wrote:
>
>> hi Dante,
>>
>> as a knowledge commons community and due to personal limitations, I don't
>> personally try to build physical collectives, and after five years, there
>> is no sign of other people in our community doing this under p2p-f banners.
>>
>> However, more generally, there are thousands of p2p/commons oriented
>> collectives already existing, including in Brussels, so it's a matter of
>> choosing, and then committing yourself to contributing to it, and
>> everything flows from there; or atlernatively, creating an initiative
>> yourself.
>>
>> I have choosen to live in an extended kinship-based community here in
>> Thailand and realize that I have never been happier than in this context,
>> (my own communal experiments having been less than successfull)  and I then
>> augment this intimacy based connection with intellectual community through
>> p2p-f and the global emerging p2p/commons movement.
>>
>> I notice that you are pretty much asking the same questions as 5 years
>> ago, perhaps you are reluctant to commit, and not really wanting what you
>> say or think you want? Not sure what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure
>> it's not an issue of lack of choice 'out there'. Perhaps you should
>> contemplate an effort to 'construct' something, physical or virtual, beyond
>> the nomadic approach (which can also be an internal attitude). I don't
>> think it matters 'what' you construct, but 'that' you construct, and that
>> through planting a flag in the ground, you allow others to align themselves
>> to your values and actions. But p2p is essentially an object-oriented
>> relationality, without shared object, it does not get off the ground.
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 7:50 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
>> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Michel
>>>
>>> Further below, some thoughts which stem out of this french lecture.
>>>
>>> I extend the lecture context as to delve into broad questions :
>>>
>>> - How to increase the potential to share and create with individuals who
>>> attend the same events, when such events are too short in time to truly get
>>> to know each other
>>>
>>> *- How to make it easier to introduce some people we meet,*
>>> *to other people we may not yet know personally *within our
>>> interconnected networks* , **based on shared interests, specific
>>> objectives or geographical proximity ?*
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *- How to do so in a way that enables a general appreciation of context
>>> , and context building processes ? [5]*
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *- If we get to know each other, how do we enable further engagement
>>> for co-creation based on respective individual social and financial
>>> contexts ?*
>>> *
>>> *
>>> *- Do we have p2p physical places to go to, converge and experiment p2p
>>> approaches, and get to know each other ?*
>>> *Permanent p2p collectives ?*
>>>
>>> ///
>>>
>>> When listening to the lecture and questions asked by people attending it,
>>> I realize there are very probably *people I could interact or
>>> collaborate with.*
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I was not in Paris for that specific seminar,
>>> yet indirectly, I experience that *each of us can indirectly benefit
>>> from the contacts other people in our networks make*
>>>
>>> When I go to seminars with people sharing interests,
>>> it is *not always easy to get in touch personally* , especially when
>>> there is no time for informal get to know's, or for art of hosting type of
>>> approaches.
>>>
>>> *Lists such as this one are useful *- yet I can hear that *for some
>>> people* ( including sometimes myself )* it represents an overflow of
>>> information.*
>>>
>>> *Hence more specifically defined lists* or *information aggregation stemming
>>> out* of more general ones ( can ) get *created around more specific
>>> objectives*. *[1]*
>>>
>>> At some point ( around 1hour30-31 minutes ) , a lady asks if you are
>>> connected to movements such as "Attac",
>>> and *you reply that you stay open for dialogue with a variety of
>>> backgrounds [2]** *
>>>
>>> Within such larger framework,
>>> regarding strategies used* [3]* ,
>>>
>>> I realize that as an individual, though well connected,
>>> I can find difficulties in finding approaches to not only interact but
>>> share and* engage* together with other individuals who apply such
>>> culture and approaches in their *daily lives*,
>>> to build up such infrastructures of *interdependence beyond the
>>> immateria*l - internet based exchanges.
>>>
>>> Some of the people I connected to in face to face interactions are on
>>> this list.
>>>  A number of us are spread across europe and/or the world.
>>>
>>> A variety of initiatives and environments exist *[4]*
>>>
>>> If Phyles related to some of our interconnected networks further emerge,
>>> how do you imagine them ?
>>>
>>> Would you personally ( or other people on this list ? )
>>> be interested in supporting "co-living - co-working" spaces ?
>>>
>>> Would we end up living together ?
>>>
>>> I realize living together , or at least have a physical convergence
>>> point where to contribute to based on shared memes,
>>> is important to me.  Yet till now I find initiatives and people spread
>>> all over.
>>>
>>> Hence my interest in finding low cost ( kind of venture communist ? )
>>> approaches to make infrastructure available,
>>> as to enable contributions to local viable systems based on p2p
>>> approaches.
>>>
>>> I d wish for p2p phyles to support such permanent p2p collective
>>> approach.
>>>
>>> Here is a suggestion : http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project
>>>
>>> I d like to provide people with such physical location to converge to,
>>> as to facilitate the process of getting to know each other through
>>> collaborating.
>>>
>>> I do remember, Michel, watching a video of an annex to your home in
>>> Thailand, which you imagined could host such p2p friendly facilities.
>>> Though I am also aware it may, for individuals such as me here in Europe,
>>> be somewhat far.
>>>
>>> Is there anyone else interested in such approach, and what are (y)our
>>> visions ?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>>
>>> *Foot Notes :*
>>>
>>> [1] and mapped as to see how they relate or stem out of each other ?
>>>
>>> *[2]* some who are more distributist, others more mutualist, but also
>>> people from the right , etc and that you even go and talk to the catholic
>>> church upon invitation from the pope.  You then further comment that
>>> "indignados" and "occupymovements" may possibly relate more easily with the
>>> p2p approach ( and ethos ? ) , yet that with the more traditional left you
>>> may have felt more resistance, as some left wing backgrounds may remain
>>> more conservative in their mode of thought then, as you noted, some profit
>>> oriented backgrounds who stay open to new ( p2p ) ideas because of an
>>> interest in finding new approaches to make money.
>>>
>>> *[3]* to facilitate potential through collaboration around shared
>>> intentions,
>>> and at the current stage of development
>>>
>>> * [4]* Ecovillages and other communities already exist, and can share a
>>> number of subcultures brought up here on p2p lists.
>>>
>>> Fablabs are emerging , and can also bring people sharing such culture
>>> together in an approach to be co-creative while increasing our autonomy
>>> through choosing our interdependencies.
>>>
>>> For now, more Fablabs in urban centers ? And generally speaking, at the
>>> moment still mostly available to a very specific elite of technicians and
>>> progressive cultural researchers ? Yet possibly opening up , connecting to
>>> community / co-working spaces, such as in Berlin :
>>> http://opendesigncity.de/ ,
>>> or initiated ( or funded ) by research backgrounds with the intention to
>>> open up to the community, such as MIT's center for Bits and Atoms
>>> http://fab.cba.mit.edu/ , such as this one
>>> http://wiki.fablab.af/index.php/Main_Page
>>>
>>> *[5] *Holopticism ? http://www.slideshare.net/AlanRosenblith/holopticism
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 4:19 AM, Michel Bauwens <
>>> michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Voici le lien vers la vidéo de votre intervention à La Cantine :
>>>> http://lacantine.ubicast.eu/videos/webinar-16-12-2011-141701/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
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>>
>>
>

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