[P2P-F] What is a fair economic system to you?

[Dante-Gabryell Monson]

Note :

my previous comments apply only in the case of a centralized law making
entity.

An alternative I may prefer, is a distributed approach where each
individual has access to information regarding transactions and costs, and
can choose what economic systems to support, or not, by visualizing
inter-dependencies.

see : http://sharewiki.org/en/Transaction_Graphs

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:09 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:

> In addition to previous comments ( thanks for opening up the discussion ),
>
> I would add *"set a limit to private accumulation"*.
>
> In addition, by law reduce costs and prohibit speculation on goods and
> services needed for survival ( shelter, food, water, sources of energy for
> heating, access to learning opportunities, access to the internet, etc ...
> ), and outlaw externalization of costs ( or at least include the real costs
> through taxes when these are externalized onto society and nature )
>
> In some ways, this would lead to a distributist approach ?
>
> Can such kind of law disrupt artificial scarcity driving up speculative
> profits in a "market" based system, by forcing excess accumulation to be
> put back on the market or given to a commons, as to avoid hoarding.
>
> Yet, such measures may not be sufficient.
>
> Ideally, it could also be applied to any other forms of assets providing
> individual privileges ( such as accumulation of monetary assets ), and lead
> to a redistribution of such assets.
>
> Cooperatives could be encouraged, and surplus/profits redistributed to
> various projects supporting social and ecological sustainability.
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
> xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Michel , the reason I make those assumptions is so as to simplify things.
>> Ofcourse, resourses are not scarse and we have to find a way to
>> distribute them equally. This adds the question of how to distribute them.
>>  i wanted to not overcomlicate things for now to make a point.
>>
>> For the same reason, i said that people dont cheat and that we have
>> unlimited time to bargain. (the unlimited time is not necessary here but
>> could happen in a computer aided bargain,
>> http://viff.dk/doc/applications.html#nordic-sugar )
>>
>> So what I am doing is creating an abstraction.
>>
>> After I create that abstraction, I say that the rules are the problem and
>> not that we dont abide by the rules(cheating),
>>
>>
>> For the last question, i would love to hear your opinion, Having the
>> person as a unit is the basis of my theory and an assumption that I would
>> like your opinion about,
>>
>> Just remember that this economic system is supposed to be a fair one, not
>> an ideal one, I believe that after creating a fair system, we could create
>> another one on top of it based on solidarity and the commons,
>>
>> *So in conclusion, I attack the belief that a free market based on the
>> first rule which i think individual anarchists call "free market" is the
>> solution,*
>>
>> Exploitation will emerge like it emerged a few thousand years ago,
>>
>>
>>
>> 2011/12/17 Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
>>
>>> hi Apostolis,
>>>
>>> why start from an erroneous assumption in the first place; since natural
>>> resources are by no means infinite. I strongly recommend reading Roberto
>>> Verzola on the abundance-scarcity polarity,
>>>
>>> see
>>> http://p2pfoundation.net/?title=Special%3ASearch&search=%22Roberto+Verzola%22&fulltext=Search
>>>
>>> your further assumptions are equally questionable; we have no infinite
>>> time to bargain and people do cheat.
>>>
>>> How to built a fair system on such assumptions; sounds like neoclassical
>>> economics and neoliberalism ..;
>>>
>>> why also start the axioms with one person as basic unit?
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:30 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <
>>> xekoukou at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As some of you may know i am trying to create/simulate a fair economic
>>>> system. I would like the opinion of the members of this list as to
>>>> what is in their opinion a fair economic system. I write down a few
>>>> thoughts of mine.
>>>>
>>>> To simplify things, lets assume that there are infinite natural
>>>> resources and that all can discover each other and they have infinite time
>>>> to bargain. Let us also assume that no one can cheat, everyone plays by the
>>>> rules.
>>>>
>>>> The first most reasonable rule is this one:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    1. *The owner of a thing is the person that decides the way that
>>>>    this thing will be used or decides the transfer of ownership to another
>>>>    person. (trading)*
>>>>
>>>>  Each person is the owner of the products of his work.
>>>>
>>>> I think that the first rule could describe the idealization of our
>>>> current economic model.
>>>>
>>>> Since all natural resources are infinite, the only reason for someone
>>>> to transfer the ownership of his work would be if ,in that way, he could
>>>> obtain something he likes and is a product of someone else s work. That
>>>> product could have been created in the past or will be created in the future
>>>>
>>>> The creation of promises adds a new characteristic to our system. It
>>>> gives it memory. Things that happened in the past affect the future. They
>>>> specifically affect the ownership of the wealth that is created in the
>>>> future.
>>>>
>>>> I will now write my second rule under which an economic system is fair
>>>> and show that for the second rule to work the first rule needs to be
>>>> changed slightly.
>>>>
>>>>      2. * At every single moment, each person should have equal
>>>> opportunity to create or obtain wealth(products) for himself.*
>>>>
>>>> The most important part of the rule is that it should happen always.
>>>>
>>>> In other words , we want the memory of our system to not affect the
>>>> equality in opportunity to create or obtain wealth for ourselves.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  *Now I will explain in my opinion why the first rule gives our system
>>>> memories that affect the second rule.*
>>>>
>>>> I will now create a very specific example that will demonstrate those
>>>> bad memories.
>>>>
>>>> Two beings A and B exist in Mars. They have their own will, don’t like
>>>> to work, in fact they can only work 8 hours a day, and abide by the first
>>>> rule.
>>>>
>>>> A likes apples and oranges and can make apples and everything else
>>>> except oranges.
>>>>
>>>> B likes apples and makes oranges.
>>>>
>>>> A can make 3 apples a day and the best possible outcome would be to
>>>> have 1 apple and 1 orange a day.
>>>>
>>>> B makes 1 orange a day and wants exactly 1 apple a day.
>>>>
>>>> If A doesn’t have his orange he is 2 times worse than B when he doesn’t
>>>> have his apple.
>>>>
>>>> In any case we can create an example of 2 persons in which A gives 2
>>>> apples to B to receive an orange based solely on the first rule.
>>>>
>>>> The fact that A is forced to give 2 apples is the way trading works.* *
>>>> *Please notice that the difference in the state of their condition is
>>>> affected only by 2 factors, their needs to a product and their abilities to
>>>> create products.*
>>>>
>>>> Also note that wealth will be accumulated in the hands of B but till
>>>> now, past created wealth doesn’t not affect how new wealth is distributed.
>>>> Our second rule still works.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Now lets go 2000 years in the future. (these apples cannot rot, lol)
>>>>
>>>> A new invention is found and is known to both.
>>>>
>>>> B decides to give oranges to A only if A creates a tool based on this
>>>> invention.
>>>>
>>>> A has no other choice than to accept.
>>>>
>>>> Now B is the owner of this tool that could allow A to make apples at
>>>> one third of the work.
>>>>
>>>> Now A would certainly like to work 2/3 of the previous time to create 6
>>>> apples in which he would give 5 to B if B gave him the tool and one orange
>>>> every day. Now B is given 5 apples instead of 2.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  *What is important is not that he is given more apples than before.
>>>> That could have happened anyways. The important thing is that the memory of
>>>> the system has played an important role in the bargain.*
>>>>
>>>> *In other words, now there is a 3rd factor, the memory of the system.*
>>>>
>>>> This contradicts our 2nd rule since there is a factor that is not
>>>> dependent on the current qualities of the persons.
>>>>
>>>> In conclusion , in an ideal world where the 1 rule applies, it is
>>>> possible for the second rule to not work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  It is also important to note that we started in a state where the
>>>> both rules worked and went into another where the 2nd didn’t work.
>>>>
>>>> This is important to the p2p movement because a lot of projects try to
>>>> decentralize, distribute the means of production, ie they are trying to go
>>>> to a state where both rules work and they dont think whether our way of
>>>> tracking ownership and promises could revert their efforts.
>>>>
>>>> *Let us also note that the second rule doesn’t prohibit a world in
>>>> which someone is richer than another. In fact we can create an economic
>>>> system in which the huge inequalities in accumulated wealth wouldn’t not
>>>> affect the 2nd rule.*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  *What kind of 'laws' should we put in order to have both rules obeyed
>>>> and what is your ideal economic system?*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely yours,
>>>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Sincerely yours,
>>
>>      Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
>>
>>
>>
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