Note :<div><br></div><div>my previous comments apply only in the case of a centralized law making entity.</div><div><br></div><div>An alternative I may prefer, is a distributed approach where each individual has access to information regarding transactions and costs, and can choose what economic systems to support, or not, by visualizing inter-dependencies.</div>
<div><br></div><div>see : <a href="http://sharewiki.org/en/Transaction_Graphs">http://sharewiki.org/en/Transaction_Graphs</a><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:09 PM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dante.monson@gmail.com">dante.monson@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">In addition to previous comments ( thanks for opening up the discussion ),<div><br></div><div>I would add <b>"set a limit to private accumulation"</b>.</div>
<div><br></div><div>In addition, by law reduce costs and prohibit speculation on goods and services needed for survival ( shelter, food, water, sources of energy for heating, access to learning opportunities, access to the internet, etc ... ), and outlaw externalization of costs ( or at least include the real costs through taxes when these are externalized onto society and nature )</div>
<div><br></div><div>In some ways, this would lead to a distributist approach ?</div><div><br></div><div>Can such kind of law disrupt artificial scarcity driving up speculative profits in a "market" based system, by forcing excess accumulation to be put back on the market or given to a commons, as to avoid hoarding.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Yet, such measures may not be sufficient.</div><div><br></div><div>Ideally, it could also be applied to any other forms of assets providing individual privileges ( such as accumulation of monetary assets ), and lead to a redistribution of such assets.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Cooperatives could be encouraged, and surplus/profits redistributed to various projects supporting social and ecological sustainability.</div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div><br></div><div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:xekoukou@gmail.com" target="_blank">xekoukou@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Michel , the reason I make those assumptions is so as to simplify things.<div>Ofcourse, resourses are not scarse and we have to find a way to distribute them equally. This adds the question of how to distribute them.</div>
<div> i wanted to not overcomlicate things for now to make a point.</div><div><br></div><div>For the same reason, i said that people dont cheat and that we have unlimited time to bargain. (the unlimited time is not necessary here but could happen in a computer aided bargain,<a href="http://viff.dk/doc/applications.html#nordic-sugar" target="_blank">http://viff.dk/doc/applications.html#nordic-sugar</a> )</div>
<div><br></div><div>So what I am doing is creating an abstraction.</div><div><br></div><div>After I create that abstraction, I say that the rules are the problem and not that we dont abide by the rules(cheating),</div><div>
<br></div><div><br></div><div>For the last question, i would love to hear your opinion, Having the person as a unit is the basis of my theory and an assumption that I would like your opinion about,</div><div><br></div><div>
Just remember that this economic system is supposed to be a fair one, not an ideal one, I believe that after creating a fair system, we could create another one on top of it based on solidarity and the commons,</div><div>
<br></div><div><b>So in conclusion, I attack the belief that a free market based on the first rule which i think individual anarchists call "free market" is the solution,</b></div><div><br></div><div>Exploitation will emerge like it emerged a few thousand years ago, </div>
<div><br></div><div><div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2011/12/17 Michel Bauwens <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
hi Apostolis,<br><br>why start from an erroneous assumption in the first place; since natural resources are by no means infinite. I strongly recommend reading Roberto Verzola on the abundance-scarcity polarity,<br><br>see <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/?title=Special%3ASearch&search=%22Roberto+Verzola%22&fulltext=Search" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net/?title=Special%3ASearch&search=%22Roberto+Verzola%22&fulltext=Search</a><br>
<br>your further assumptions are equally questionable; we have no infinite time to bargain and people do cheat. <br><br>How to built a fair system on such assumptions; sounds like neoclassical economics and neoliberalism ..;<br>
<br>why also start the axioms with one person as basic unit?<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div>On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:30 AM, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:xekoukou@gmail.com" target="_blank">xekoukou@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style="text-align:center"><p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial">As some of you may know i am
trying to create/simulate a fair economic system. I would like the
opinion of the <span lang="en-US">members</span> of this list as to
what is in their opinion a fair economic system. I write down a few
thoughts of mine.</font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm" lang="en-US">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial">To simplify things, lets
assume that there are infinite natural resources and that all can
discover each other and they have infinite time to bargain. Let us
also assume that no one can cheat, everyone plays by the rules.</font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm" lang="en-US">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial">The first most reasonable
rule is this one:</font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm" lang="en-US"></p><ol><li><b>The owner of a thing is the
person that decides the way that this thing will be used or decides
the transfer of ownership to another person. (trading)</b></li></ol>
<p></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm" lang="en-US">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial">Each person is the owner of
the products of his work.</font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm" lang="en-US">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial">I think that the first rule
could describe the idealization of our current economic model.</font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm" lang="en-US">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial">Since all natural resources
are infinite, the only reason for someone to transfer the ownership
of his work would be if ,in that way, he could obtain something he
likes and is a product of someone else s work. That product could
have been created in the past or will be created in the future</font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm" lang="en-US">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial">The creation of promises
adds a new characteristic to our system. It gives it memory. Things
that happened in the past affect the future. They specifically affect
the ownership of the wealth that is created in the future.</font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm" lang="en-US">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial">I will now write my second
rule under which an economic system is fair and show that for the
second rule to work the first rule needs to be changed slightly.</font></font></p><p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm" lang="en-US"> 2. <b> At every single moment, each
person should have equal opportunity to create or obtain
wealth(products) for himself.</b></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm" lang="en-US">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial">The most important part of
the rule is that it should happen always.</font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">In other
words , we want the memory of our system to not affect the equality
in opportunity to create or obtain wealth for ourselves.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm"><br></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US"><u>Now I
will explain in my opinion why the first rule gives our system
memories that affect the second rule.</u></span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">I will
now create a very specific example that will demonstrate those bad
memories. </span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">Two
beings A and B exist in Mars. They have their own will, don’t like
to work, in fact they can only work 8 hours a day, and abide by the
first rule.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">A likes
apples and oranges and can make apples and everything else except
oranges.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">B likes
apples and makes oranges.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">A can
make 3 apples a day and the best possible outcome would be to have 1
apple and 1 orange a day.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">B makes 1
orange a day and wants exactly 1 apple a day.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">If A
doesn’t have his orange he is 2 times worse than B when he doesn’t
have his apple.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">In any
case we can create an example of 2 persons in which A gives 2 apples
to B to receive an orange based solely on the first rule.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">The fact
that A is forced to give 2 apples is the way trading works.<b> </b></span></font></font><u>Please notice that the difference in the state of their condition is affected only by 2 factors, their needs to a product and their abilities to create products.</u></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">Also note
that wealth will be accumulated in the hands of B but till now, past
created wealth doesn’t not affect how new wealth is distributed.
Our second rule still works.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm"><br></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">Now lets
go 2000 years in the future. (these apples cannot rot, lol)</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">A new
invention is found and is known to both.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">B decides
to give oranges to A only if A creates a tool based on this
invention.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">A has no
other choice than to accept.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">Now B is
the owner of this tool that could allow A to make apples at one third
of the work.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">Now A
would certainly like to work 2/3 of the previous time to create 6
apples in which he would give 5 to B if B gave him the tool and one
orange every day. Now B is given 5 apples instead of 2.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<br>
</p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US"><b>What is
important is not that he is given more apples than before. That could
have happened anyways. The important thing is that the memory of the
system has played an important role in the bargain.</b></span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><b><span lang="en-US">In other
words, now there is a 3</span><sup><span lang="en-US">rd</span></sup><span lang="en-US">
factor, the memory of the system.</span></b></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">This
contradicts our 2</span><sup><span lang="en-US">nd</span></sup><span lang="en-US">
rule since there is a factor that is not dependent on the current
qualities of the persons.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">In
conclusion , in an ideal world where the 1 rule applies, it is
possible for the second rule to not work.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm"><br></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">It is
also important to note that we started in a state where the both
rules worked and went into another where the 2</span><sup><span lang="en-US">nd</span></sup><span lang="en-US">
didn’t work.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US">This is
important to the p2p movement because a lot of projects try to
decentralize, distribute the means of production, ie they are trying
to go to a state where both rules work and they dont think whether
our way of tracking ownership and promises could revert their
efforts.</span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><b><span lang="en-US">Let us
also note that the second rule doesn’t prohibit a world in which
someone is richer than another. In fact we can create an economic
system in which the huge inequalities in accumulated wealth wouldn’t
not affect the 2</span><sup><span lang="en-US">nd</span></sup><span lang="en-US">
rule.</span></b></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm"><br></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial"><span lang="en-US"><b>What kind
of 'laws' should we put in order to have both rules obeyed and what
is your ideal economic system?</b></span></font></font></p>
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0cm"><br></p><font color="#888888">
<p style="text-align:left;margin-bottom:0.5cm">
<font color="#000000"><font face="arial">-- </font></font></p>
<pre style="margin-bottom:0.5cm"><div style="text-align:left"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Sincerely yours, </span></div><div style="text-align:left"> <font face="arial, sans-serif"><font style="font-size:9pt" size="2">Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis</font></font></div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br></div></div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse"><pre style="white-space:pre-wrap"><br></pre><pre style="white-space:pre-wrap">
Sincerely yours, </pre><span><font color="#888888"><pre style="white-space:pre-wrap"> Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis</pre></font></span></span><br>
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