[P2P-F] Fwd: Regional Economic Communities
Dante-Gabryell Monson
dante.monson at gmail.com
Wed Apr 20 02:51:45 CEST 2011
Thanks Tim,
I now understand better the GROK currency architecture.
A mutual credit system, where the credit line is limited and guaranteed by
the shares owned by each individual participant.
Hence only if a participant would leave the economic system while being in
negative on their mutual credit account, would their shares be used to cover
their negative balance.
This sounds like an interesting approach to me, and is less risky then I
first imagined ( I thought the shares where the currency ) and expressed in
my message ( regarding concentration of wealth and control of shares , when
related to the monetary system )
-----
I want to contribute to building up a local economic network in Leipzig.
I first want to support housing cooperatives in Leipzig - project :
http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project
-----
some other, further and brief personal reflections :
Possibly there can also be other currency architectures imagined - such as
production based / guaranteed units - use value vouchers as currency ?
A draft based on energy production by Marc Fawzi ( with which I and others
somehow brainstormed with at the time ) :
http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy
I also find the ripple distributed clearing approach of interest, based on
credit lines ( which could directly be implemented with the GROK. ) :
http://ripple-project.org/
a recent thread to which I try to add some "pledge" routing idea,
and suggest a "semantic narrative authoring" layer - as inspired by
"netention" -
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rippleusers/pre-iou/rippleusers/CaN6obHK5GU/SmCqc1lQj-sJ
anyway - a lot can be said regarding alternative currencies...
glad to be in touch - I d be happy to find ways to collaborate.
Dante
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 1:12 AM, Tim Reeves <tim.reeves at rewig.info> wrote:
> Hallo all,
>
> many thanks to Dante-Gabyrell for raising a some pertinent points!
>
> I should add that I moved from England to Germany when I was 22 and am now
> 56. My German is thus, in many respects and certainly regarding financial
> ideas and terminology, better than my English. The translation (from the
> German original) was done by my eldest daughter (who now lives in the UK but
> was not raised there) and myself. So you'll probably find it a bit wooden
> and lacking in many places.
>
> For the rest, please see below.
>
> *Mit herzlichen Grüßen,*
>
> *Tim Reeves*
>
> Flurstraße 10, D-85221 Dachau
>
> Tel. 08131 - 273 653 Fax 08131 - 273 654
>
> Email: tim.reeves at rewig.info
>
> Skype: timothy.reeves (mit Webcam)
>
> [image: ReeComm-Logo]
>
> regionale-wirtschaftsgemeinschaft.info
> regional-economic-communities.info rewig-muenchen.de
>
> Sonst im Web: lebensmittel.ttdachau.de timreeves.de gemeinwohl.info<http://www.gemeinwohl.info/>
> seminarraum-dachau.lasslos.net
>
>
> Am 18.04.2011 22:37, schrieb Dante-Gabryell Monson:
>
> Yes, sounds like a nice set of initiates to me.
>
> Yet, Small note regarding the barter currency they propose, "covered/guaranteed
> by the jointly-owned assets."
>
> I remember discussing such approach in the past.
>
> In my current understanding , such asset ( such as shares ? ) guaranteed
> currency is perhaps an approach taken to create an incentive to invest in
> the local economy ?
>
> Yes, it's also, among other reasons, an incentive. But not only to invest
> in local, sustainable businesses, but also to become active in the local
> barter community. Basically we wanted the complementary currency to have
> certain "no nonsense" features:
>
> - *Comes into circulation* a completely different way to the fiat money
> we have now,
> see
> http://regional-economic-communities.info/concept/barter-community/currency/
> There is no need or even possibilty for a central bank to govern the
> amount of currency.
> It's the elegant sort of solution that mathematicians like - it governs
> itself automatically.
> More answers about the GROK are here:
> http://regional-economic-communities.info/faq/barter-community/
> - *Asset-backed* by deposition of certificates of joint-ownership.
> This avoids the problem that many trust- or credit-based barter
> communities have, sadly, experienced. Someone joins, takes advantage of some
> of the offers and then drops out or moves away, having effectively "stolen"
> from the community. In our concept, someone must first deposit a certficate
> paid for with dollars (which now can be used for something sensible) to get
> a credit limit on her account. Note: Not credit-money, but credit limit!
> Now, this person can spend GROKs up to her credit limit - and if she just
> disappears off the map, well then the certificate now belongs to the Coop
> and the community has not (in balance at least) been harmed. btw someone
> without any certificates to deposit can open an account without a credit
> limit and earn GROKs by selling goods or services.
>
> The Coop now starting up in Munich has decided to allow GROKs also to be
> purchased directly with Euros. This is not a problem for the asset backing,
> since they'll be investing the Euros into local businesses, just as with the
> Euros for the joint-ownership certficates. In fact it has a major advantage,
> because that investment can never be given notice on or withdrawn, i.e. the
> Coop can calculate with that money indefinetly. Let me hint that the
> question of joint-ownership certficates is currently under review and may be
> evolved a next step in the near future - any comments most welcome!
>
>
> May be worth asking... I cc Tim Reeves.
>
> Yet I feel that such approach to currency can be risky as it can lead to
> the monopolization of assets into the hands of a minority, hence having the
> whole regional economy owned by a small minority on the medium to long term
> ?
>
> Ah, that would be sad indeed and is definitely not what we want. The
> concept as currently published differentiates ownership certificates with
> and without voting rights (see
> http://regional-economic-communities.info/concept/cpo/funding/) In the
> General Meeting of the Coop only those holding at least one certificate with
> voting rights are admitted, and every person then has one vote. So in fact
> we have a democratic decision process, in which "vote buying" is hardly
> possible.
>
> In Munich we have gone a step further: Any person can become a member of
> the Coop (and thus vote). The fee is intentionally low (100 €), to allow a
> "one head one vote" paradigm for all local people. The "volume" financing of
> the Coop comes through different instruments, such as Profit Participation
> Certificates or Provenance Certificates - both of which can again be
> deposited for GROK credit limits.
>
>
> As far as I remember, although I have no references to provide ( would
> need to ask Bernard Lietaer ),
> in Belgium at least, I heard that unless one has a special status such as a
> bank,
> one can not operate a currency with euro equivalence exchangeable for
> euros, unless there is 100 percent euro backing in reserves, such as is the
> case with the german regio/freigeld currency called "chiemgauer"
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiemgauer
> and/or the JAK bank in Sweden
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JAK_members_bank
>
> Yup, that's right. And it's why we made the provision that GROKs are NOT
> (directly) convertible back to national currency. The exciting thing about
> the GROK is that it is NOT linked to any national currency (= fiat money =
> going to crash soon), it floats in it's own asset-backed space, without
> interest, and hopefully, probably, without any inflation. The German
> Authority which oversees banks has given us a written reply that our concept
> does not require a bank licence. I'm still waiting for a reply to the same
> question from the Bank of England.
>
>
> If their barter currency is solely for their internal local economy, with
> no possibility for exchanging for euros ( purchasing outside of their local
> economy ), I do not understand why they would not have it in a fiat mutual
> credit form, such as WIR, with participants choosing the percentage of their
> monetary transaction they wish to be done in mutual credit ( such as WIR ) ?
>
> Well, who wants to change back from a stable currency like the GROK to a
> fiat money like the Euro? :) But yes, for example if someone moves away. In
> which case, you just spend your GROKs - on groceries or whatever, in good
> time. Or there may by that time be a clearing institute, exchanging Frisco
> GROKs for Seattle GROKs or whatever. If you worked real hard and now have
> lots of GROKs you can buy any joint-ownership certficates (with your GROKs)
> which may be on offer within the barter ring - and then sell these for
> Euros. That's an indirect but legal way to get back into national currency
> if you really need to. And independent of that, participants in the barter
> community are free to agree a deal in which part is paid in GROKs and part
> in national currency, no problem with that.
>
> The WIR Swiss Franc has a 1 - 1 parity with the standard Swiss Franc, and
> the WIR Coop also has a Swiss Bank Licence.
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIR_Bank
> http://wn.com/WIR_Bank
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> HI Franz,
>>
>> any perspectives on this?
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 1:59 AM, Dante-Gabryell Monson <
>> dante.monson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> http://regional-economic-communities.info/
>>>
>>> ( found via open space list )
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Tim Reeves <tim.reeves at rewig.info>
>>> Date: Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 6:19 AM
>>> Subject: Regional Economic Communities
>>> To: Tim Reeves <tim.reeves at rewig.info>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear friends and acquaintances,
>>>
>>> I just put together a *one-time* mailing list of the english speakers I
>>> know (and some german speakers with international connections). I'm writing
>>> to let you know about the concept of Regional Economic Communities, hoping
>>> that you may be able to help getting it known.
>>>
>>> The concept presents a complete – and radically new – paradigm for
>>> regional communities, linking together commercial, sustainable and social
>>> aspects. It describes a means for normal citizens to become joint owners of
>>> local, sustainably-run businesses. It then introduces a barter currency, the
>>> Grok, which is independent of national currency and covered by the
>>> jointly-owned assets.
>>>
>>> While thus apparently being a primarily economic paradigm, it's essence
>>> and motivation come from a spiritual perspective and in practice great value
>>> is put on the way we interact with each other, and to integrating personal
>>> growth and the furthering of interpersonal skills into the daily working
>>> life.
>>>
>>> The external forms have been carefully designed to be *practicable*.
>>>
>>> You can read all about it here:
>>> http://regional-economic-communities.info/
>>>
>>> The first such community is currently starting up in Munich - the
>>> cooperative is founded and registered, and moving ahead swiftly towards
>>> getting the actual business side up and running. If you would like to help
>>> the concept take root in the english-speaking world, here are some things
>>> that would help:
>>>
>>> - Forward this email to anyone you know who might be interested -
>>> people active in regional currencies, ecological measures, transition town,
>>> and such.
>>> - Anyone who has the possibility, please set a link to the concept
>>> website on your website, so that other interested people may find it.
>>> - Talk to friends about it, subscribe for the newsletter (do so on
>>> the website) – and don't hesitate to contact me with questions.
>>> - Envision a better future for all, and practice wellwishing for all
>>> the many endeavours to achieve that aim which are now being explored.
>>>
>>> The quality of the time in which we live demonstrates an exceptional
>>> development of consciousness. It grows with every individual who is willing
>>> to tread the paths of personal growth and systemic evolution. May it
>>> bestow us all with more cooperative and appreciative lives — paving the way
>>> to a future which we can truly look forward to.
>>>
>>> *With thanks and warm regards,*
>>>
>>> *Tim Reeves*
>>>
>>> Flurstraße 10, D-85221 Dachau
>>>
>>> Tel. 08131 - 273 653 Fax 08131 - 273 654
>>>
>>> Email: tim.reeves at rewig.info
>>>
>>> Skype: timothy.reeves (mit Webcam)
>>>
>>> [image: ReeComm-Logo]
>>>
>>> regionale-wirtschaftsgemeinschaft.info
>>> regional-economic-communities.info rewig-muenchen.de
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
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