Thanks Tim,<div><br></div><div>I now understand better the GROK currency architecture.</div><div><br></div><div>A mutual credit system, where the credit line is limited and guaranteed by the shares owned by each individual participant.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Hence only if a participant would leave the economic system while being in negative on their mutual credit account, would their shares be used to cover their negative balance.</div><div><br></div><div>
This sounds like an interesting approach to me, and is less risky then I first imagined ( I thought the shares where the currency ) and expressed in my message ( regarding concentration of wealth and control of shares , when related to the monetary system )</div>
<div><br></div><div>-----</div><div><br></div><div>I want to contribute to building up a local economic network in Leipzig.</div><div>I first want to support housing cooperatives in Leipzig - project :</div><div><a href="http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project">http://sharewiki.org/en/Leipzig_project</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>-----</div><div><br></div><div>some other, further and brief personal reflections :</div><div><br></div><div>Possibly there can also be other currency architectures imagined - such as production based / guaranteed units - use value vouchers as currency ?</div>
<div><br></div><div>A draft based on energy production by Marc Fawzi ( with which I and others somehow brainstormed with at the time ) :�<a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy">http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Energy_Economy</a>�</div>
<div><br></div><div>I also find the ripple distributed clearing approach of interest, based on credit lines ( which could directly be implemented with the GROK. ) :</div><div><br></div><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><a href="http://ripple-project.org/">http://ripple-project.org/</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>a recent thread to which I try to add some "pledge" routing idea,</div><div>and suggest a "semantic narrative authoring" layer - as inspired by "netention" -</div><div><br>
</div><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><a href="https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rippleusers/pre-iou/rippleusers/CaN6obHK5GU/SmCqc1lQj-sJ">https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rippleusers/pre-iou/rippleusers/CaN6obHK5GU/SmCqc1lQj-sJ</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>anyway - a lot can be said regarding alternative currencies...�</div><div><br></div><div>glad to be in touch - I d be happy to find ways to collaborate.</div><div><br></div><div>Dante</div><div><br></div>
<div><br></div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div><br></div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 1:12 AM, Tim Reeves <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tim.reeves@rewig.info">tim.reeves@rewig.info</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#003333">
<font size="-1"><font face="Verdana">Hallo all,<br>
<br>
many thanks to Dante-Gabyrell for raising a some pertinent
points!<br>
<br>
I should add that I moved from England to Germany when I was 22
and am now 56. My German is thus, in many respects and certainly
regarding financial ideas and terminology, better than my
English. The translation (from the German original) was done by
my eldest daughter (who now lives in the UK but was not raised
there) and myself. So you'll probably find it a bit wooden and
lacking in many places.<br>
<br>
For the rest, please see below.<br>
<br>
</font></font>
<div>
<span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(185, 116, 74);font-family:Segoe UI,Frutiger Next,DejaVu Sans,Bitstream Vera Sans,Lucida Grande,Lucida Mac,Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular,sans-serif"><b>Mit
herzlichen Gr��en,</b><br>
<br>
<b style="font-size:12pt;letter-spacing:1px">Tim Reeves</b><br>
<br>
</span>
<span style="font-size:9pt;color:rgb(152, 80, 35);font-family:Segoe UI,Frutiger Next,DejaVu Sans,Bitstream Vera Sans,Lucida Grande,Lucida Mac,Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular,sans-serif"><div class="im">
Flurstra�e
10, D-85221 Dachau<br>
<br>
Tel. 08131 - 273 653�� Fax 08131 - 273 654<br>
<span style="font-size:6px"><br>
</span>
Email: <a href="mailto:tim.reeves@rewig.info" target="_blank">tim.reeves@rewig.info</a><br>
<span style="font-size:6px"><br>
</span>
Skype: timothy.reeves (mit Webcam)<br>
<br>
<img src="?ui=2&ik=b818858ddd&view=att&th=12f6ae1a1ac50a5f&attid=0.1&disp=emb&zw" alt="ReeComm-Logo" height="92" width="200"><br>
<br>
<a href="http://regionale-wirtschaftsgemeinschaft.info/" target="_blank">regionale-wirtschaftsgemeinschaft.info</a>���
<a href="http://regional-economic-communities.info/" target="_blank">regional-economic-communities.info</a>���
<a href="http://rewig-muenchen.de/" target="_blank">rewig-muenchen.de</a><br>
<br></div>
Sonst im Web: <a href="http://lebensmittel.ttdachau.de/" target="_blank">lebensmittel.ttdachau.de</a>
� <a href="http://timreeves.de/" target="_blank">timreeves.de</a> � <a href="http://www.gemeinwohl.info/" target="_blank">gemeinwohl.info</a> � <a href="http://seminarraum-dachau.lasslos.net/" target="_blank">seminarraum-dachau.lasslos.net</a><br>
</span>
<br>
</div>
<br>
Am 18.04.2011 22:37, schrieb Dante-Gabryell Monson:
<div class="im"><blockquote type="cite"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, sounds
like a nice set of initiates to me.</font>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Yet, Small note
regarding the barter currency they propose, "co</font><span style="font-family:Verdana">vered/guaranteed by the
jointly-owned assets."</span>
<div>
<font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">I remember
discussing such approach in the past.</font></div>
<div>
<font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">In my current
understanding , such asset ( such as shares ? ) guaranteed
currency is perhaps an approach taken to create an incentive
to invest in the local economy ?</font></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>
Yes, it's also, among other reasons, an incentive. But not only to
invest in local, sustainable businesses, but also to become active
in the local barter community. Basically we wanted the complementary
currency to have certain "no nonsense" features:<br>
<ul>
<li><b>Comes into circulation</b> a completely different way to
the fiat money we have now, <br>
see
<a href="http://regional-economic-communities.info/concept/barter-community/currency/" target="_blank">http://regional-economic-communities.info/concept/barter-community/currency/</a><br>
There is no need or even possibilty for a central bank to govern
the amount of currency.<br>
It's the elegant sort of solution that mathematicians like - it
governs itself automatically.<br>
More answers about the GROK are here:<br>
<a href="http://regional-economic-communities.info/faq/barter-community/" target="_blank">http://regional-economic-communities.info/faq/barter-community/</a><br>
</li>
<li><b>Asset-backed</b> by deposition of certificates of
joint-ownership.<br>
This avoids the problem that many trust- or credit-based barter
communities have, sadly, experienced. Someone joins, takes
advantage of some of the offers and then drops out or moves
away, having effectively "stolen" from the community. In our
concept, someone must first deposit a certficate paid for with
dollars (which now can be used for something sensible) to get a
credit limit on her account. Note: Not credit-money, but credit
limit! Now, this person can spend GROKs up to her credit limit -
and if she just disappears off the map, well then the
certificate now belongs to the Coop and the community has not
(in balance at least) been harmed. btw someone without any
certificates to deposit can open an account without a credit
limit and earn GROKs by selling goods or services.<br>
</li>
</ul>
The Coop now starting up in Munich has decided to allow GROKs also
to be purchased directly with Euros. This is not a problem for the
asset backing, since they'll be investing the Euros into local
businesses, just as with the Euros for the joint-ownership
certficates. In fact it has a major advantage, because that
investment can never be given notice on or withdrawn, i.e. the Coop
can calculate with that money indefinetly. Let me hint that the
question of joint-ownership certficates is currently under review
and may be evolved a next step in the near future - any comments
most welcome!<div class="im"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">May be worth
asking... I cc Tim Reeves.</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Yet I feel that
such approach to currency can be risky as it can lead to the
monopolization of assets into the hands of a minority, hence
having the whole regional economy owned by a small minority
on the medium to long term ?</font></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>
Ah, that would be sad indeed and is definitely not what we want. The
concept as currently published differentiates ownership certificates
with and without voting rights (see
<a href="http://regional-economic-communities.info/concept/cpo/funding/" target="_blank">http://regional-economic-communities.info/concept/cpo/funding/</a>) In
the General Meeting of the Coop only those holding at least one
certificate with voting rights are admitted, and every person then
has one vote. So in fact we have a democratic decision process, in
which "vote buying" is hardly possible.<br>
<br>
In Munich we have gone a step further: Any person can become a
member of the Coop (and thus vote). The fee is intentionally low
(100 �), to allow a "one head one vote" paradigm for all local
people. The "volume" financing of the Coop comes through different
instruments, such as Profit Participation Certificates or Provenance
Certificates - both of which can again be deposited for GROK credit
limits.<div class="im"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">As far as I
remember, although I have no references to provide ( would
need to ask Bernard Lietaer ),</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">in Belgium at
least, I heard that unless one has a special status such
as a bank,</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">one can not
operate a currency with euro equivalence exchangeable�for
euros, unless there is 100 percent euro backing in
reserves, such as is the case with the german
regio/freigeld currency called "chiemgauer"�</font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiemgauer" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiemgauer</a></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">and/or
the JAK bank in Sweden�</span><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JAK_members_bank" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JAK_members_bank</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>
Yup, that's right. And it's why we made the provision that GROKs are
NOT (directly) convertible back to national currency. The exciting
thing about the GROK is that it is NOT linked to any national
currency (= fiat money = going to crash soon), it floats in it's own
asset-backed space, without interest, and hopefully, probably,
without any inflation. The German Authority which oversees banks has
given us a written reply that our concept does not require a bank
licence. I'm still waiting for a reply to the same question from the
Bank of England.<div class="im"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">If their barter
currency is solely for their internal local economy, with
no possibility for exchanging for euros ( purchasing
outside of their local economy ), I do not understand why
they would not have it in a fiat mutual credit form, such
as WIR, with participants choosing the percentage of their
monetary transaction they wish to be done in mutual credit
( such as WIR ) ?</font></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>
Well, who wants to change back from a stable currency like the GROK
to a fiat money like the Euro? :)� But yes, for example if someone
moves away. In which case, you just spend your GROKs - on groceries
or whatever, in good time. Or there may by that time be a clearing
institute, exchanging Frisco GROKs for Seattle GROKs or whatever. If
you worked real hard and now have lots of GROKs you can buy any
joint-ownership certficates (with your GROKs) which may be on offer
within the barter ring - and then sell these for Euros. That's an
indirect but legal way to get back into national currency if you
really need to. And independent of that, participants in the barter
community are free to agree a deal in which part is paid in GROKs
and part in national currency, no problem with that.<br>
<br>
The WIR Swiss Franc has a 1 - 1 parity with the standard Swiss
Franc, and the WIR Coop also has a Swiss Bank Licence.<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIR_Bank" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIR_Bank</a></font></div>
<div><a href="http://wn.com/WIR_Bank" target="_blank">http://wn.com/WIR_Bank</a></div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana"><br>
</font><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 9:14 PM,
Michel Bauwens <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com" target="_blank">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex">
HI Franz,<br>
<br>
any perspectives on this?<br>
<br>
Michel<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 1:59 AM, Dante-Gabryell
Monson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dante.monson@gmail.com" target="_blank">dante.monson@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><span style="font-family:Verdana"><a href="http://regional-economic-communities.info/" target="_blank">http://regional-economic-communities.info/</a></span></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">( found�via open space
list )</div>
<div class="gmail_quote"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded
message ----------<br>
From: <b class="gmail_sendername">Tim
Reeves</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tim.reeves@rewig.info" target="_blank">tim.reeves@rewig.info</a>></span><br>
Date: Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 6:19 AM<br>
Subject: Regional Economic Communities<br>
To: Tim Reeves <<a href="mailto:tim.reeves@rewig.info" target="_blank">tim.reeves@rewig.info</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#003333"> Dear
friends and acquaintances,<br>
<br>
I just put together a <u>one-time</u>
mailing list of the english speakers I
know (and some german speakers with
international connections). I'm writing to
let you know about the concept of Regional
Economic Communities, hoping that you may
be able to help getting it known. <font size="-1"><font face="Verdana"><br>
<br>
The concept presents a complete � and
radically new � paradigm for regional
communities, linking together
commercial, sustainable and social
aspects. It describes a means for
normal citizens to become joint owners
of local, sustainably-run businesses.
It then introduces a barter currency,
the Grok, which is independent of
national currency and covered by the
jointly-owned assets.<br>
<br>
While thus apparently being a
primarily economic paradigm, it's
essence and motivation come from a
spiritual perspective and in practice
great value is put on the way we
interact with each other, and to
integrating personal growth and the
furthering of interpersonal skills
into the daily working life.<br>
<br>
The external forms have been carefully
designed to be <i>practicable</i>.<br>
<br>
You can read all about it here: <a href="http://regional-economic-communities.info/" target="_blank">http://regional-economic-communities.info/</a><br>
<br>
The first such community is currently
starting up in Munich - the
cooperative is founded and registered,
and moving ahead swiftly towards
getting the actual business side up
and running. If you would like to help
the concept take root in the
english-speaking world, here are some
things that would help:<br>
</font></font>
<ul>
<li>Forward this email to anyone you
know who might be interested - people
active in regional currencies,
ecological measures, transition town,
and such.</li>
<li>Anyone who has the possibility,
please set a link to the concept
website on your website, so that other
interested people may find it.</li>
<li>Talk to friends about it, subscribe
for the newsletter (do so on the
website) <font size="-1"><font face="Verdana">� and</font></font>
don't hesitate to contact me with
questions.<br>
</li>
<li>Envision a better future for all,
and practice wellwishing for all the
many endeavours to achieve that aim
which are now being explored.<br>
</li>
</ul>
<font size="-1"><font face="Verdana">The
quality of the time in which we live
demonstrates an exceptional
development of consciousness. It grows
with every individual who is willing
to tread the paths of personal</font></font><font size="-1"><font face="Verdana"> growth</font></font><font size="-1"><font face="Verdana"> and
systemic evolution. May it bestow us
all with more cooperative and
appreciative lives � paving the way to
a future which we can truly look
forward to.<br>
</font></font><br>
<div> <span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(185, 116, 74);font-family:Segoe UI,Frutiger Next,DejaVu Sans,Bitstream Vera Sans,Lucida Grande,Lucida Mac,Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular,sans-serif"><b>With
thanks and warm regards,</b><br>
<br>
<b style="font-size:12pt;letter-spacing:1px">Tim Reeves</b><br>
<br>
</span> <span style="font-size:9pt;color:rgb(152, 80, 35);font-family:Segoe UI,Frutiger Next,DejaVu Sans,Bitstream Vera Sans,Lucida Grande,Lucida Mac,Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular,sans-serif">Flurstra�e
10, D-85221 Dachau<br>
<br>
Tel. 08131 - 273 653�� Fax 08131 - 273
654<br>
<span style="font-size:6px"><br>
</span> Email: <a href="mailto:tim.reeves@rewig.info" target="_blank">tim.reeves@rewig.info</a><br>
<span style="font-size:6px"><br>
</span> Skype: timothy.reeves (mit
Webcam)<br>
<br>
<img alt="ReeComm-Logo" height="92" width="200"><br>
<br>
<a href="http://regionale-wirtschaftsgemeinschaft.info/" target="_blank">regionale-wirtschaftsgemeinschaft.info</a>���
<a href="http://regional-economic-communities.info/" target="_blank">regional-economic-communities.info</a>���
<a href="http://rewig-muenchen.de/" target="_blank">rewig-muenchen.de</a><br>
</span><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
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