[PeDAGoG] Paths to a just and sustainable society - organisational models

Sun Oct 10 22:00:20 CEST 2021

Thank you, Ashish. This is very helpful. I have made a document which 
puts together your replies and those sent to me personally by another 
PeDaGoG member, and with her permission I will share them with you/the 
list.

Meanwhile I have been looking at new examples of how to organise 
'change' communities. This is the latest one - 
https://www.deepmedicinecircle.org/ - which has come out of the 
collaboration of Rupa Marya and Raj Patel on their recently published 
book /Inflamed: Deep Medicine and the Anatomy of Injustice/. (Which is 
the first example I have ever read of a text written by non-Indigenous 
people which takes Indigenous knowledge systems seriously alongside the 
'new' sciences - which also take the interconnectedness of all things as 
a given. So essential reading for any alternatives thinker/activist, IMHO.)

The Deep Medicine people seem to be organising the way Tyson Yunkaporta 
recommends in /Sand Talk/ - bonds of two, making more bonds of two, 
until eventually the circle forms 'organically' out of positive existing 
relationships. They also have the 'action circle' nested in a 'circle of 
advisors' and then a wider group of supporters.

As a different sort of example I have looked at Momentum Community - 
https://www.momentumcommunity.org/ - which has a more typical 
'corporate' structure for delivering 'services'.

I am also reflecting on what I am (re)reading about politics today in 
Amitav Ghosh's 2016 book the /Great Derangement Climate Change and the 
Unthinkable/, which seems to have become even more relevant (as well as 
prescient) in the past five years. I will write an article for the RED 
website on how and why this is so.

Christine

On 10/10/21 10:36 pm, Ashish Kothari wrote:
>
> Hi Christine, apologies for the long-delayed responsd to your qs. Some 
> thoughts below your 4 qs ... these are re. local communities, mostly 
> in rural areas. For urban situations, or for middle class movements, 
> payments that are able to sustain the people who take up special tasks 
> for alternative initiatives are much more common.
>
> ashish
>
> On 30/09/21 2:54 am, Christine Dann wrote:
>> This is a really valuable discussion. My take on it is that there 
>> will be no one size that fits all. Ted Trainer assumes that local 
>> level communities can form and provide most of the necessities of 
>> life (including democratic governance) solely or mainly through 
>> voluntary effort. There are indeed excellent examples of such 
>> 'voluntarist' communities in existence (as there have been for over 
>> two centuries in most parts of the world) but so far they have never 
>> gone to such a horizontal scale as to make any significant dents on 
>> the market-state and capitalist industrialism.
>>
>> Contrast the voluntarist efforts to create eco-villages and 
>> communities in heavily industrialised countries with the 
>> organised/professional efforts to 'eco' existing villages in rural 
>> India, as described by Sujit Sinha in his 'Living Utopias Videos' 
>> post to the PeDaGoG list on September 29. (Excerpt below).
>>
>> Can we learn from both types of initiative?
>>
>> My experiences of being involved with so-called 'pre-figurative' 
>> initiatives in Aotearoa New Zealand (alternative currency markets and 
>> services, Transition Towns, co-operative enterprises, community 
>> gardens) is that if they are to go to scale, and persist, volunteer 
>> effort is not enough. Organising and managing a successful market, 
>> week after week, is a lot of work, and while many people may be keen 
>> to volunteer on the day, most people in today's market-state 
>> societies are busy earning their livings (and raising children) and 
>> have limited time to volunteer. Especially when it requires skills 
>> they may not have, such as accounting for money, raising vegetables, 
>> facilitating meetings, etc. This means that voluntary work is too 
>> often done by people who have time to spare, rather than the best 
>> skill-set for the job. There can also be problems around 
>> accountability with volunteers who are free to make up what they 
>> think is required as they go along. Further, matching volunteers with 
>> the tasks to be done, and motivating them, is a skill all in itself - 
>> but it goes largely unrecognised and unrewarded. Hence lots of 
>> well-intentioned and well-designed projects can fall over or not 
>> reach full potential through lack of sufficiently skilled personnel 
>> committed to making them work - week after week and year after year.
>>
>> So my big questions are
>>
>> (1) how do the long-lived examples of just and sustainable 
>> communities actually operate?
> I am not sure what you mean by 'actually operate'. If you mean 
> processes that help run such communities, these are v. diverse, from 
> institutions of governance and management to 'leadership' to teams for 
> day to day management to others. I am giving here the link to a book 
> of case studies from India that may help in better understanding of 
> how some of the alternative initiatives work: 
> https://kalpavriksh.org/publication/ecologies-of-hope-and-transformation-post-development-alternatives-from-india/ 
>
>> (2) are they really all based on voluntary effort alone?
> This depends on what you mean by 'voluntary', and what task/service 
> is. Where it is about leading/holding resistance movements, or 
> building community systems and infrastructure, it is often considered 
> part of community life, and since everyone (including those involved) 
> benefits, people don't necessarily think of this as a task that needs 
> renumeration. Where it is acknowledged that special services/task take 
> away from the ability to make a living, in many communities, there is 
> some contribution by the rest of the community for services rendered 
> by a member, such as grain, or help in managing other aspects of life 
> that would suffer due to the time being given. This is traditionally 
> sanctioned. Where such traditions have broken down, a certain monetary 
> contribution may enter, either by the community or as provided by the 
> state. Importantly though in these diverse situations, the spirit of 
> voluntarism is important; the service (of leadership, or maintaining 
> group dynamics, or managing accounts, etc) is not a job, it is a part 
> of being in the community, often rotates, and is imbued wiht a sense 
> of doing something for/with the community rather than because there is 
> some pecuniary or material benefit from it. Having said all this, 
> however, we have found that 'leadership' does often come with heavy 
> personal cost, and while this is partly 'compensated' by significant 
> respect and recognition by teh community (and outsiders), it may not 
> be adequate when the personal loss is material, or 
> emotional/psychological.
>> (3) if not, what methods do they have for recognising and 
>> recompensing the necessary skills of community building and 
>> maintenance, as related to the provision of necessities and the 
>> democratic governance of the community?
> This is also v. diverse. Recognition can come in the form of higher 
> social status, special position in community events, being nominated 
> as representative to the 'outside' world, additional powers, etc. But 
> both traditionally and in modern systems, there may also be mateiral 
> /financial benefits (or 'compensation' ... which I find a strange term 
> if the spirit of voluntarism prevails... its a rather capitalist way 
> of looking at work done for one's community!). Community forest guards 
> appointed over a long term (i.e. where the task is not rotated amongst 
> all families), for instance, may get some honoraria. Many traditional 
> systems of paying in foodgrains have broken down wtih 
> commercialisation, and it is not easy to convince everyone in the 
> community to restart with when a fresh initiative to conserve 
> ecosystems, or manage the commons, starts... so then monetary payments 
> may be resorted to. It is in the context of these rapidly transforming 
> situations that your qs. becomes esp. important, and where, with all 
> the caveats re. the state that the discussion below has brought in 
> (esp. agreeing with Carlos), some support from govt may be sought, as 
> long as it does not enable the state to dominate community decisions.
>> (4) are these methods usually culturally specific, and/or are they 
>> (or some of them) transferable?
> What we feel is that it is not possible to 'replicate' these methods, 
> but it is posisble to learn from them, adapt them to one's own 
> circumstances (cultural, economic, ecological, political), and create 
> in a sense modified or new methods. What is perhaps most important is 
> to see what ethics/values/principles have worked (or not). For 
> instance the princple of consensus decision-making at the radical 
> democracy (face-to-face community) level (Mendha-Lekha, which Sujit 
> cites, is famous for this), could be adopted, but how this will work 
> in one's own collective may differ from where one has learnt it from. 
> This can be called 'outscaling' instead of upscaling or 
> replication.... and then scale can be achieved by linking these 
> diverse local inititives with each other through networks and 
> platforms of horizontal collaboration.
>>
>> It's spring time here in NZ, and I just learned a Maori proverb: 
>> "Koanga tangata tahi, ngahuru puta noa" (At digging time just one 
>> person; at harvest time surrounded by others.) So it seems that even 
>> pre-industrial, pre-state societies grappled with the issue of who 
>> does what valuable work when. But they mostly 'solved' it - until the 
>> colonists arrived and destroyed their societies.
>>
>> Nevertheless - in our efforts to build more just and sustainable 
>> societies, can we afford to neglect or ignore this important 
>> dimension of social reality?
>>
>> Christine
>>
>>
>>
>> "I want to tell the whole group about my recent experience of a 
>> workshop with village level activists and the kind of materials and 
>> pedagogy used and the next level challenges we will face. I think 
>> this might be of interest to the whole group and people might have 
>> experience and ideas to share.
>>
>> Due to relaxations in lockdown I was able to conduct a two whole day 
>> , face to face , workshops with 60 people . About 2/3^rd of 
>> participants were working at village level in 6 districts of the 
>> state of West Bengal , one district each of the states of Odisha and 
>> Jharkhand. So there were three language groups. 1/3^rd were the urban 
>> staff of an NGO which works in these rural areas , primarily trying 
>> to create village discussion forums , to take forward many of the 
>> ideas of “alternatives to Industrialism”
>>
>> In three sessions I circulated a one page note with 10-12 main points 
>> each on Amish ( USA) , Kibbutz( Israel) , and Mendha village ( India 
>> – maharashtra ) . These notes were in vernacular language. In groups 
>> of 6-8 persons they read the note, discussed , and came up with 
>> written comments and questions in about 20 minutes . As I collected 
>> the notes and started discussing , I showed them slides of still 
>> images of Amish ( not many available) and a 5 minute clipping from a 
>> film called “Raising the Barn” . For kibbutz also still images. And 
>> for Mendha a short 10 minute film. Each of these sessions went on for 
>> more than 2 hours with lots of animated discussions. The short note, 
>> the still photos , the short film were really helpful. We had planned 
>> to do Zapatistas but ran out of time.
>>
>> These activists would like to tell these stories and initiate 
>> discussions at district, sub-district and at village forums which 
>> they are trying to create. But they need more “detailed stories” of 
>> such cases in the vernacular so that can handle all kinds of 
>> questions . In India Vikalp Sangam has already started writing 
>> detailed case studies in some state languages and also making 
>> audiovisuals.  "
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 30/09/21 2:39 am, Carlos Tornel wrote:
>>> Thanks Ariel and Tom!
>>>
>>> As I was saying to Ted, I just want to clarify that I'm not 
>>> advocating nor think that struggling to achieve state power is the 
>>> way through - We have the experiences of Bolivia and Ecuador with 
>>> indigenous or indigenous backed governments that tried to take 
>>> control of the state only to find that the state operates in a 
>>> global capitalist context which meant for many of them an increase 
>>> forms of extraction and forms of violence against them and the very 
>>> nature that they gave rights to. So I do agree with Ted that this is 
>>> not the way forward, as well as with many Latin American thinkers 
>>> who argue along the same lines (Holloway, Esteva, Dinerstein, etc). 
>>> What I was thinking about was more in the lines of what can we still 
>>> demand of the actually existing state or use the tools that already 
>>> exist within it, to achieve some of the goals we want to achieve. 
>>> I'm thinking particularly about some indigenous communities' 
>>> struggles that are suing the state or demanding their rights be 
>>> granted and respected. These are of course tools that were built by 
>>> and "inside" the master's house, so I wouldn't say these will 
>>> necessarily lead towards a more just or equal world, but they are 
>>> nonetheless tools we can use to resist as we move forwards in the 
>>> creation of a new world. So long story short, should we just ignore 
>>> the state or can we 'use it', not to conquer state power, but to use 
>>> the tools at our disposal keeping in mind that the ultimate goal 
>>> should be societies that are rid of the state?
>>>
>>> This might refer back to the point Ariel was making about what can 
>>> be mediated with existing institutions. Although I'm not sure that I 
>>> agree with what Tom was mentioning. Why assume that life-saving 
>>> medicine of technological innovations such as solar panels of 
>>> broadband need the State? Just thinking about this in 10 year 
>>> anniversary of Occupy shows that people can organize food systems, 
>>> health clinics, reflection and discussion groups all without the 
>>> state, universities of hospitals. Of course this doesn't mean that 
>>> we should get rid of the hospitals now, but we can surely work our 
>>> way forward so that all these institutions that are not necessarily 
>>> there for our well-being but to create and exacerbate our 
>>> dependencies on them can be rethought or simply cese to be needed in 
>>> the not so distant future?
>>>
>>> Apologies for the long response but I do appreciate the chance to 
>>> continue  this debate and listening to other folk's opinions!
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> C.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> El mié, 29 sept 2021 a las 14:14, Tom Abeles (<tabeles at gmail.com 
>>> <mailto:tabeles at gmail.com>>) escribió:
>>>
>>>     I would be concerned, living in such a world, if I needed
>>>     life-saving medical services from vaccines to heart surgery.
>>>     Similarly, I would be concerned without universities, research
>>>     and technology which has given us solar panels, broadband
>>>     internet and similar which is imbedded in much of what we use on
>>>     a daily basis. The Buddhist Gross Happiness Index ponders these
>>>     issues.
>>>
>>>     On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 7:20 PM Ariel Salleh
>>>     <arielsalleh7 at gmail.com <mailto:arielsalleh7 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Nice point Carlos.
>>>         Considering how states are historically sex-gendered
>>>         institutions may offer a way forward that mediates yours and
>>>         Ted’s position …?
>>>         Ariel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         On 28 Sep 2021, at 6:58 am, Carlos Tornel <tornelc at gmail.com
>>>         <mailto:tornelc at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Hi all and thanks Pallav for sharing this article!
>>>
>>>         I'm relatively new on some of the lists, but I thought I
>>>         could share some thoughts after the reading.
>>>
>>>         I found the article quite useful for thinking about how we
>>>         can start to build a post (growth, capitalism, extractive,
>>>         etc.) society. I have faced similar questions and concerns
>>>         when advocating for a convivial or a communal society in
>>>         different spaces, such as what do we do with state power?
>>>         With armies, the military, nuclear weapons, etc.? How do we
>>>         move away from the Hobbian reality of power and the state?
>>>         Several of the anarchist and degrowth proponentes (although
>>>         not so many have looked seriously at this link until
>>>         recently) have formulated proposals against this, i.e. try
>>>         to reduce our dependence on the state and progressively move
>>>         away from it. However this brings back the debate we've been
>>>         having for some time now in Latin America, should we seek to
>>>         take back the state or not? My own opinion is that we
>>>         should, through several of the proposals presented in the
>>>         article, such as food and energy sovereignty, we can
>>>         progressively start to move away from the state, leading
>>>         towards more convivial societies. However it does seem that
>>>         the state will have to play a part in this transition, so
>>>         perhaps we need to think of the transition from one society
>>>         to another in different scales and with different agencies:
>>>         I.e. What should we ask from the state? What can we do
>>>         ourselves in local and communal terms and how can we
>>>         continue to build networks of solidarity or communitarian
>>>         entanglements at the regional, and even global level.
>>>
>>>         My thanks again Pallav for sharing and to Ted for a very
>>>         insightful and useful analysis.
>>>
>>>         Best,
>>>
>>>         Carlos
>>>
>>>         El sáb, 25 sept 2021 a las 5:06, Pallav Das
>>>         (<dpallav at gmail.com <mailto:dpallav at gmail.com>>) escribió:
>>>         The "eco-anarchist" transition strategy relies on
>>>         “prefiguring” the new social forms in the existing society.
>>>         The most effective way to get people to see the sense and
>>>         the merits of the new ways is to establish as many examples
>>>         of them as possible here and now. This approach minimizes
>>>         the chances of violent conflict; if we persuade large
>>>         numbers to the alternative then radical change in structures
>>>         might be brought about peacefully.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         Friends,
>>>
>>>         A new article, "The path to a just and sustainable society"
>>>         has been uploaded to the "Radical Ecological Democracy"
>>>         website. In the second part of his discussion on
>>>         “Eco-anarchism”, Ted Trainer lays out the core
>>>         characteristics of a post consumer capitalist society,
>>>         operating on the principles of “The Simpler Way”.  Please
>>>         share the article with your networks and join the discussion
>>>         on REDlistserv. The author is copied here in case you would
>>>         like to contact him directly.
>>>
>>>         https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainable-society/
>>>         <https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainable-society/>
>>>
>>>         Best,
>>>
>>>         Pallav
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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> -- 
> Ashish Kothari
>
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