[PeDAGoG] Paths to a just and sustainable society
Ashish Kothari
ashishkothari at riseup.net
Sun Oct 10 11:36:19 CEST 2021
Hi Christine, apologies for the long-delayed responsd to your qs. Some
thoughts below your 4 qs ... these are re. local communities, mostly in
rural areas. For urban situations, or for middle class movements,
payments that are able to sustain the people who take up special tasks
for alternative initiatives are much more common.
ashish
On 30/09/21 2:54 am, Christine Dann wrote:
> This is a really valuable discussion. My take on it is that there will
> be no one size that fits all. Ted Trainer assumes that local level
> communities can form and provide most of the necessities of life
> (including democratic governance) solely or mainly through voluntary
> effort. There are indeed excellent examples of such 'voluntarist'
> communities in existence (as there have been for over two centuries in
> most parts of the world) but so far they have never gone to such a
> horizontal scale as to make any significant dents on the market-state
> and capitalist industrialism.
>
> Contrast the voluntarist efforts to create eco-villages and
> communities in heavily industrialised countries with the
> organised/professional efforts to 'eco' existing villages in rural
> India, as described by Sujit Sinha in his 'Living Utopias Videos' post
> to the PeDaGoG list on September 29. (Excerpt below).
>
> Can we learn from both types of initiative?
>
> My experiences of being involved with so-called 'pre-figurative'
> initiatives in Aotearoa New Zealand (alternative currency markets and
> services, Transition Towns, co-operative enterprises, community
> gardens) is that if they are to go to scale, and persist, volunteer
> effort is not enough. Organising and managing a successful market,
> week after week, is a lot of work, and while many people may be keen
> to volunteer on the day, most people in today's market-state societies
> are busy earning their livings (and raising children) and have limited
> time to volunteer. Especially when it requires skills they may not
> have, such as accounting for money, raising vegetables, facilitating
> meetings, etc. This means that voluntary work is too often done by
> people who have time to spare, rather than the best skill-set for the
> job. There can also be problems around accountability with volunteers
> who are free to make up what they think is required as they go along.
> Further, matching volunteers with the tasks to be done, and motivating
> them, is a skill all in itself - but it goes largely unrecognised and
> unrewarded. Hence lots of well-intentioned and well-designed projects
> can fall over or not reach full potential through lack of sufficiently
> skilled personnel committed to making them work - week after week and
> year after year.
>
> So my big questions are
>
> (1) how do the long-lived examples of just and sustainable communities
> actually operate?
I am not sure what you mean by 'actually operate'. If you mean processes
that help run such communities, these are v. diverse, from institutions
of governance and management to 'leadership' to teams for day to day
management to others. I am giving here the link to a book of case
studies from India that may help in better understanding of how some of
the alternative initiatives work:
https://kalpavriksh.org/publication/ecologies-of-hope-and-transformation-post-development-alternatives-from-india/
> (2) are they really all based on voluntary effort alone?
This depends on what you mean by 'voluntary', and what task/service is.
Where it is about leading/holding resistance movements, or building
community systems and infrastructure, it is often considered part of
community life, and since everyone (including those involved) benefits,
people don't necessarily think of this as a task that needs
renumeration. Where it is acknowledged that special services/task take
away from the ability to make a living, in many communities, there is
some contribution by the rest of the community for services rendered by
a member, such as grain, or help in managing other aspects of life that
would suffer due to the time being given. This is traditionally
sanctioned. Where such traditions have broken down, a certain monetary
contribution may enter, either by the community or as provided by the
state. Importantly though in these diverse situations, the spirit of
voluntarism is important; the service (of leadership, or maintaining
group dynamics, or managing accounts, etc) is not a job, it is a part of
being in the community, often rotates, and is imbued wiht a sense of
doing something for/with the community rather than because there is some
pecuniary or material benefit from it. Having said all this, however, we
have found that 'leadership' does often come with heavy personal cost,
and while this is partly 'compensated' by significant respect and
recognition by teh community (and outsiders), it may not be adequate
when the personal loss is material, or emotional/psychological.
> (3) if not, what methods do they have for recognising and recompensing
> the necessary skills of community building and maintenance, as related
> to the provision of necessities and the democratic governance of the
> community?
This is also v. diverse. Recognition can come in the form of higher
social status, special position in community events, being nominated as
representative to the 'outside' world, additional powers, etc. But both
traditionally and in modern systems, there may also be mateiral
/financial benefits (or 'compensation' ... which I find a strange term
if the spirit of voluntarism prevails... its a rather capitalist way of
looking at work done for one's community!). Community forest guards
appointed over a long term (i.e. where the task is not rotated amongst
all families), for instance, may get some honoraria. Many traditional
systems of paying in foodgrains have broken down wtih commercialisation,
and it is not easy to convince everyone in the community to restart with
when a fresh initiative to conserve ecosystems, or manage the commons,
starts... so then monetary payments may be resorted to. It is in the
context of these rapidly transforming situations that your qs. becomes
esp. important, and where, with all the caveats re. the state that the
discussion below has brought in (esp. agreeing with Carlos), some
support from govt may be sought, as long as it does not enable the state
to dominate community decisions.
> (4) are these methods usually culturally specific, and/or are they (or
> some of them) transferable?
What we feel is that it is not possible to 'replicate' these methods,
but it is posisble to learn from them, adapt them to one's own
circumstances (cultural, economic, ecological, political), and create in
a sense modified or new methods. What is perhaps most important is to
see what ethics/values/principles have worked (or not). For instance the
princple of consensus decision-making at the radical democracy
(face-to-face community) level (Mendha-Lekha, which Sujit cites, is
famous for this), could be adopted, but how this will work in one's own
collective may differ from where one has learnt it from. This can be
called 'outscaling' instead of upscaling or replication.... and then
scale can be achieved by linking these diverse local inititives with
each other through networks and platforms of horizontal collaboration.
>
> It's spring time here in NZ, and I just learned a Maori proverb:
> "Koanga tangata tahi, ngahuru puta noa" (At digging time just one
> person; at harvest time surrounded by others.) So it seems that even
> pre-industrial, pre-state societies grappled with the issue of who
> does what valuable work when. But they mostly 'solved' it - until the
> colonists arrived and destroyed their societies.
>
> Nevertheless - in our efforts to build more just and sustainable
> societies, can we afford to neglect or ignore this important dimension
> of social reality?
>
> Christine
>
>
>
> "I want to tell the whole group about my recent experience of a
> workshop with village level activists and the kind of materials and
> pedagogy used and the next level challenges we will face. I think this
> might be of interest to the whole group and people might have
> experience and ideas to share.
>
> Due to relaxations in lockdown I was able to conduct a two whole day ,
> face to face , workshops with 60 people . About 2/3^rd of participants
> were working at village level in 6 districts of the state of West
> Bengal , one district each of the states of Odisha and Jharkhand. So
> there were three language groups. 1/3^rd were the urban staff of an
> NGO which works in these rural areas , primarily trying to create
> village discussion forums , to take forward many of the ideas of
> “alternatives to Industrialism”
>
> In three sessions I circulated a one page note with 10-12 main points
> each on Amish ( USA) , Kibbutz( Israel) , and Mendha village ( India –
> maharashtra ) . These notes were in vernacular language. In groups of
> 6-8 persons they read the note, discussed , and came up with written
> comments and questions in about 20 minutes . As I collected the notes
> and started discussing , I showed them slides of still images of Amish
> ( not many available) and a 5 minute clipping from a film called
> “Raising the Barn” . For kibbutz also still images. And for Mendha a
> short 10 minute film. Each of these sessions went on for more than 2
> hours with lots of animated discussions. The short note, the still
> photos , the short film were really helpful. We had planned to do
> Zapatistas but ran out of time.
>
> These activists would like to tell these stories and initiate
> discussions at district, sub-district and at village forums which they
> are trying to create. But they need more “detailed stories” of such
> cases in the vernacular so that can handle all kinds of questions . In
> India Vikalp Sangam has already started writing detailed case studies
> in some state languages and also making audiovisuals. "
>
>
>
>
> On 30/09/21 2:39 am, Carlos Tornel wrote:
>> Thanks Ariel and Tom!
>>
>> As I was saying to Ted, I just want to clarify that I'm not
>> advocating nor think that struggling to achieve state power is the
>> way through - We have the experiences of Bolivia and Ecuador with
>> indigenous or indigenous backed governments that tried to take
>> control of the state only to find that the state operates in a global
>> capitalist context which meant for many of them an increase forms of
>> extraction and forms of violence against them and the very nature
>> that they gave rights to. So I do agree with Ted that this is not the
>> way forward, as well as with many Latin American thinkers who argue
>> along the same lines (Holloway, Esteva, Dinerstein, etc). What I was
>> thinking about was more in the lines of what can we still demand of
>> the actually existing state or use the tools that already exist
>> within it, to achieve some of the goals we want to achieve. I'm
>> thinking particularly about some indigenous communities' struggles
>> that are suing the state or demanding their rights be granted and
>> respected. These are of course tools that were built by and "inside"
>> the master's house, so I wouldn't say these will necessarily lead
>> towards a more just or equal world, but they are nonetheless tools we
>> can use to resist as we move forwards in the creation of a new world.
>> So long story short, should we just ignore the state or can we 'use
>> it', not to conquer state power, but to use the tools at our disposal
>> keeping in mind that the ultimate goal should be societies that are
>> rid of the state?
>>
>> This might refer back to the point Ariel was making about what can be
>> mediated with existing institutions. Although I'm not sure that I
>> agree with what Tom was mentioning. Why assume that life-saving
>> medicine of technological innovations such as solar panels of
>> broadband need the State? Just thinking about this in 10 year
>> anniversary of Occupy shows that people can organize food systems,
>> health clinics, reflection and discussion groups all without the
>> state, universities of hospitals. Of course this doesn't mean that we
>> should get rid of the hospitals now, but we can surely work our way
>> forward so that all these institutions that are not necessarily there
>> for our well-being but to create and exacerbate our dependencies on
>> them can be rethought or simply cese to be needed in the not so
>> distant future?
>>
>> Apologies for the long response but I do appreciate the chance to
>> continue this debate and listening to other folk's opinions!
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> C.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> El mié, 29 sept 2021 a las 14:14, Tom Abeles (<tabeles at gmail.com
>> <mailto:tabeles at gmail.com>>) escribió:
>>
>> I would be concerned, living in such a world, if I needed
>> life-saving medical services from vaccines to heart surgery.
>> Similarly, I would be concerned without universities, research
>> and technology which has given us solar panels, broadband
>> internet and similar which is imbedded in much of what we use on
>> a daily basis. The Buddhist Gross Happiness Index ponders these
>> issues.
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 7:20 PM Ariel Salleh
>> <arielsalleh7 at gmail.com <mailto:arielsalleh7 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Nice point Carlos.
>> Considering how states are historically sex-gendered
>> institutions may offer a way forward that mediates yours and
>> Ted’s position …?
>> Ariel
>>
>>
>>
>> On 28 Sep 2021, at 6:58 am, Carlos Tornel <tornelc at gmail.com
>> <mailto:tornelc at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all and thanks Pallav for sharing this article!
>>
>> I'm relatively new on some of the lists, but I thought I
>> could share some thoughts after the reading.
>>
>> I found the article quite useful for thinking about how we
>> can start to build a post (growth, capitalism, extractive,
>> etc.) society. I have faced similar questions and concerns
>> when advocating for a convivial or a communal society in
>> different spaces, such as what do we do with state power?
>> With armies, the military, nuclear weapons, etc.? How do we
>> move away from the Hobbian reality of power and the state?
>> Several of the anarchist and degrowth proponentes (although
>> not so many have looked seriously at this link until
>> recently) have formulated proposals against this, i.e. try to
>> reduce our dependence on the state and progressively move
>> away from it. However this brings back the debate we've been
>> having for some time now in Latin America, should we seek to
>> take back the state or not? My own opinion is that we should,
>> through several of the proposals presented in the article,
>> such as food and energy sovereignty, we can progressively
>> start to move away from the state, leading towards more
>> convivial societies. However it does seem that the state will
>> have to play a part in this transition, so perhaps we need to
>> think of the transition from one society to another in
>> different scales and with different agencies: I.e. What
>> should we ask from the state? What can we do ourselves in
>> local and communal terms and how can we continue to build
>> networks of solidarity or communitarian entanglements at the
>> regional, and even global level.
>>
>> My thanks again Pallav for sharing and to Ted for a very
>> insightful and useful analysis.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Carlos
>>
>> El sáb, 25 sept 2021 a las 5:06, Pallav Das
>> (<dpallav at gmail.com <mailto:dpallav at gmail.com>>) escribió:
>> The "eco-anarchist" transition strategy relies on
>> “prefiguring” the new social forms in the existing society.
>> The most effective way to get people to see the sense and the
>> merits of the new ways is to establish as many examples of
>> them as possible here and now. This approach minimizes the
>> chances of violent conflict; if we persuade large numbers to
>> the alternative then radical change in structures might be
>> brought about peacefully.
>>
>>
>>
>> Friends,
>>
>> A new article, "The path to a just and sustainable society"
>> has been uploaded to the "Radical Ecological Democracy"
>> website. In the second part of his discussion on
>> “Eco-anarchism”, Ted Trainer lays out the core
>> characteristics of a post consumer capitalist society,
>> operating on the principles of “The Simpler Way”. Please
>> share the article with your networks and join the discussion
>> on REDlistserv. The author is copied here in case you would
>> like to contact him directly.
>>
>> https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainable-society/
>> <https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainable-society/>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Pallav
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Ashish Kothari
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