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<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thank you, Ashish. This is very
helpful. I have made a document which puts together your replies
and those sent to me personally by another PeDaGoG member, and
with her permission I will share them with you/the list. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Meanwhile I have been looking at new
examples of how to organise 'change' communities. This is the
latest one - <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.deepmedicinecircle.org/">https://www.deepmedicinecircle.org/</a> - which has come
out of the collaboration of Rupa Marya and Raj Patel on their
recently published book <i>Inflamed: Deep Medicine and the
Anatomy of Injustice</i>. (Which is the first example I have
ever read of a text written by non-Indigenous people which takes
Indigenous knowledge systems seriously alongside the 'new'
sciences - which also take the interconnectedness of all things as
a given. So essential reading for any alternatives
thinker/activist, IMHO.) <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">The Deep Medicine people seem to be
organising the way Tyson Yunkaporta recommends in <i>Sand Talk</i>
- bonds of two, making more bonds of two, until eventually the
circle forms 'organically' out of positive existing relationships.
They also have the 'action circle' nested in a 'circle of
advisors' and then a wider group of supporters. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">As a different sort of example I have
looked at Momentum Community - <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.momentumcommunity.org/">https://www.momentumcommunity.org/</a>
- which has a more typical 'corporate' structure for delivering
'services'. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I am also reflecting on what I am
(re)reading about politics today in Amitav Ghosh's 2016 book the <i>Great
Derangement Climate Change and the Unthinkable</i>, which seems
to have become even more relevant (as well as prescient) in the
past five years. I will write an article for the RED website on
how and why this is so. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Christine<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/10/21 10:36 pm, Ashish Kothari
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:6839e868-2665-fadd-3f56-fe80fdb7d434@riseup.net">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>Hi Christine, apologies for the long-delayed responsd to your
qs. Some thoughts below your 4 qs ... these are re. local
communities, mostly in rural areas. For urban situations, or for
middle class movements, payments that are able to sustain the
people who take up special tasks for alternative initiatives are
much more common. <br>
</p>
<p>ashish <br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 30/09/21 2:54 am, Christine Dann
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:94b0d767-e51d-8bc6-dd36-73eaecc5740a@horomaka.org">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">This is a really valuable
discussion. My take on it is that there will be no one size
that fits all. Ted Trainer assumes that local level
communities can form and provide most of the necessities of
life (including democratic governance) solely or mainly
through voluntary effort. There are indeed excellent examples
of such 'voluntarist' communities in existence (as there have
been for over two centuries in most parts of the world) but so
far they have never gone to such a horizontal scale as to make
any significant dents on the market-state and capitalist
industrialism. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Contrast the voluntarist efforts to
create eco-villages and communities in heavily industrialised
countries with the organised/professional efforts to 'eco'
existing villages in rural India, as described by Sujit Sinha
in his 'Living Utopias Videos' post to the PeDaGoG list on
September 29. (Excerpt below). <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Can we learn from both types of
initiative? <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">My experiences of being involved
with so-called 'pre-figurative' initiatives in Aotearoa New
Zealand (alternative currency markets and services, Transition
Towns, co-operative enterprises, community gardens) is that if
they are to go to scale, and persist, volunteer effort is not
enough. Organising and managing a successful market, week
after week, is a lot of work, and while many people may be
keen to volunteer on the day, most people in today's
market-state societies are busy earning their livings (and
raising children) and have limited time to volunteer.
Especially when it requires skills they may not have, such as
accounting for money, raising vegetables, facilitating
meetings, etc. This means that voluntary work is too often
done by people who have time to spare, rather than the best
skill-set for the job. There can also be problems around
accountability with volunteers who are free to make up what
they think is required as they go along. Further, matching
volunteers with the tasks to be done, and motivating them, is
a skill all in itself - but it goes largely unrecognised and
unrewarded. Hence lots of well-intentioned and well-designed
projects can fall over or not reach full potential through
lack of sufficiently skilled personnel committed to making
them work - week after week and year after year. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">So my big questions are</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">(1) how do the long-lived examples
of just and sustainable communities actually operate?</div>
</blockquote>
I am not sure what you mean by 'actually operate'. If you mean
processes that help run such communities, these are v. diverse,
from institutions of governance and management to 'leadership' to
teams for day to day management to others. I am giving here the
link to a book of case studies from India that may help in better
understanding of how some of the alternative initiatives work:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://kalpavriksh.org/publication/ecologies-of-hope-and-transformation-post-development-alternatives-from-india/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://kalpavriksh.org/publication/ecologies-of-hope-and-transformation-post-development-alternatives-from-india/</a>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:94b0d767-e51d-8bc6-dd36-73eaecc5740a@horomaka.org">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">(2) are they really all based on
voluntary effort alone?</div>
</blockquote>
This depends on what you mean by 'voluntary', and what
task/service is. Where it is about leading/holding resistance
movements, or building community systems and infrastructure, it is
often considered part of community life, and since everyone
(including those involved) benefits, people don't necessarily
think of this as a task that needs renumeration. Where it is
acknowledged that special services/task take away from the ability
to make a living, in many communities, there is some contribution
by the rest of the community for services rendered by a member,
such as grain, or help in managing other aspects of life that
would suffer due to the time being given. This is traditionally
sanctioned. Where such traditions have broken down, a certain
monetary contribution may enter, either by the community or as
provided by the state. Importantly though in these diverse
situations, the spirit of voluntarism is important; the service
(of leadership, or maintaining group dynamics, or managing
accounts, etc) is not a job, it is a part of being in the
community, often rotates, and is imbued wiht a sense of doing
something for/with the community rather than because there is some
pecuniary or material benefit from it. Having said all this,
however, we have found that 'leadership' does often come with
heavy personal cost, and while this is partly 'compensated' by
significant respect and recognition by teh community (and
outsiders), it may not be adequate when the personal loss is
material, or emotional/psychological. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:94b0d767-e51d-8bc6-dd36-73eaecc5740a@horomaka.org">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">(3) if not, what methods do they
have for recognising and recompensing the necessary skills of
community building and maintenance, as related to the
provision of necessities and the democratic governance of the
community? <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
This is also v. diverse. Recognition can come in the form of
higher social status, special position in community events, being
nominated as representative to the 'outside' world, additional
powers, etc. But both traditionally and in modern systems, there
may also be mateiral /financial benefits (or 'compensation' ...
which I find a strange term if the spirit of voluntarism
prevails... its a rather capitalist way of looking at work done
for one's community!). Community forest guards appointed over a
long term (i.e. where the task is not rotated amongst all
families), for instance, may get some honoraria. Many traditional
systems of paying in foodgrains have broken down wtih
commercialisation, and it is not easy to convince everyone in the
community to restart with when a fresh initiative to conserve
ecosystems, or manage the commons, starts... so then monetary
payments may be resorted to. It is in the context of these rapidly
transforming situations that your qs. becomes esp. important, and
where, with all the caveats re. the state that the discussion
below has brought in (esp. agreeing with Carlos), some support
from govt may be sought, as long as it does not enable the state
to dominate community decisions. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:94b0d767-e51d-8bc6-dd36-73eaecc5740a@horomaka.org">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"> </div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">(4) are these methods usually
culturally specific, and/or are they (or some of them)
transferable?</div>
</blockquote>
What we feel is that it is not possible to 'replicate' these
methods, but it is posisble to learn from them, adapt them to
one's own circumstances (cultural, economic, ecological,
political), and create in a sense modified or new methods. What is
perhaps most important is to see what ethics/values/principles
have worked (or not). For instance the princple of consensus
decision-making at the radical democracy (face-to-face community)
level (Mendha-Lekha, which Sujit cites, is famous for this), could
be adopted, but how this will work in one's own collective may
differ from where one has learnt it from. This can be called
'outscaling' instead of upscaling or replication.... and then
scale can be achieved by linking these diverse local inititives
with each other through networks and platforms of horizontal
collaboration. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:94b0d767-e51d-8bc6-dd36-73eaecc5740a@horomaka.org">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">It's spring time here in NZ, and I
just learned a Maori proverb: "Koanga tangata tahi, ngahuru
puta noa" (At digging time just one person; at harvest time
surrounded by others.) So it seems that even pre-industrial,
pre-state societies grappled with the issue of who does what
valuable work when. But they mostly 'solved' it - until the
colonists arrived and destroyed their societies. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Nevertheless - in our efforts to
build more just and sustainable societies, can we afford to
neglect or ignore this important dimension of social reality?</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Christine<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">"I
want to tell the whole group about my recent experience of
a workshop with village level activists and the kind of
materials and pedagogy used and the next level challenges
we will face. I think this might be of interest to the
whole group and people might have experience and ideas to
share. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Due
to relaxations in lockdown I was able to conduct a two
whole day , face to face , workshops with 60 people .
About 2/3<sup>rd</sup> of participants were working at
village level in 6 districts of the state of West Bengal ,
one district each of the states of Odisha and Jharkhand.
So there were three language groups. 1/3<sup>rd</sup> were
the urban staff of an NGO which works in these rural areas
, primarily trying to create village discussion forums ,
to take forward many of the ideas of “alternatives to
Industrialism” </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In
three sessions I circulated a one page note with 10-12
main points each on Amish ( USA) , Kibbutz( Israel) , and
Mendha village ( India – maharashtra ) . These notes were
in vernacular language. In groups of 6-8 persons they read
the note, discussed , and came up with written comments
and questions in about 20 minutes . As I collected the
notes and started discussing , I showed them slides of
still images of Amish ( not many available) and a 5 minute
clipping from a film called “Raising the Barn” . For
kibbutz also still images. And for Mendha a short 10
minute film. Each of these sessions went on for more than
2 hours with lots of animated discussions. The short note,
the still photos , the short film were really helpful. We
had planned to do Zapatistas but ran out of time. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">These
activists would like to tell these stories and initiate
discussions at district, sub-district and at village
forums which they are trying to create. But they need more
“detailed stories” of such cases in the vernacular so that
can handle all kinds of questions . In India Vikalp Sangam
has already started writing detailed case studies in some
state languages and also making audiovisuals. " </span></p>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 30/09/21 2:39 am, Carlos Tornel
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABZEAVBVfVyzgbpCwBYt_Fr9gk=S5pKB1QS=WZ1D5+TuYw229Q@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Thanks Ariel and Tom!
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As I was saying to Ted, I just want to clarify that I'm
not advocating nor think that struggling to achieve state
power is the way through - We have the experiences of
Bolivia and Ecuador with indigenous or indigenous backed
governments that tried to take control of the state only
to find that the state operates in a global capitalist
context which meant for many of them an increase forms of
extraction and forms of violence against them and the very
nature that they gave rights to. So I do agree with Ted
that this is not the way forward, as well as with many
Latin American thinkers who argue along the same lines
(Holloway, Esteva, Dinerstein, etc). What I was thinking
about was more in the lines of what can we still demand of
the actually existing state or use the tools that already
exist within it, to achieve some of the goals we want to
achieve. I'm thinking particularly about some indigenous
communities' struggles that are suing the state or
demanding their rights be granted and respected. These are
of course tools that were built by and "inside" the
master's house, so I wouldn't say these will necessarily
lead towards a more just or equal world, but they are
nonetheless tools we can use to resist as we move forwards
in the creation of a new world. So long story short,
should we just ignore the state or can we 'use it', not to
conquer state power, but to use the tools at our disposal
keeping in mind that the ultimate goal should be societies
that are rid of the state? <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This might refer back to the point Ariel was making
about what can be mediated with existing institutions.
Although I'm not sure that I agree with what Tom was
mentioning. Why assume that life-saving medicine of
technological innovations such as solar panels of
broadband need the State? Just thinking about this in 10
year anniversary of Occupy shows that people can organize
food systems, health clinics, reflection and
discussion groups all without the state, universities of
hospitals. Of course this doesn't mean that we should get
rid of the hospitals now, but we can surely work our way
forward so that all these institutions that are not
necessarily there for our well-being but to create and
exacerbate our dependencies on them can be rethought or
simply cese to be needed in the not so distant future?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Apologies for the long response but I do appreciate the
chance to continue this debate and listening to other
folk's opinions!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All the best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>C.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El mié, 29 sept 2021 a las
14:14, Tom Abeles (<<a href="mailto:tabeles@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">tabeles@gmail.com</a>>)
escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><span
style="color:rgb(68,68,68);font-family:"Open
Sans",serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(248,248,248)">I
would be concerned, living in such a world, if I
needed life-saving medical services from vaccines to
heart surgery. Similarly, I would be concerned without
universities, research and technology which has given
us solar panels, broadband internet and similar which
is imbedded in much of what we use on a daily basis.
The Buddhist Gross Happiness Index ponders these
issues.</span><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Sep 28, 2021
at 7:20 PM Ariel Salleh <<a
href="mailto:arielsalleh7@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">arielsalleh7@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Nice point Carlos.<br>
Considering how states are historically sex-gendered
institutions may offer a way forward that mediates
yours and Ted’s position …?<br>
Ariel<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 28 Sep 2021, at 6:58 am, Carlos Tornel <<a
href="mailto:tornelc@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">tornelc@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi all and thanks Pallav for sharing this article!<br>
<br>
I'm relatively new on some of the lists, but I thought
I could share some thoughts after the reading. <br>
<br>
I found the article quite useful for thinking about
how we can start to build a post (growth, capitalism,
extractive, etc.) society. I have faced similar
questions and concerns when advocating for a convivial
or a communal society in different spaces, such as
what do we do with state power? With armies, the
military, nuclear weapons, etc.? How do we move away
from the Hobbian reality of power and the state?
Several of the anarchist and degrowth proponentes
(although not so many have looked seriously at this
link until recently) have formulated proposals against
this, i.e. try to reduce our dependence on the state
and progressively move away from it. However this
brings back the debate we've been having for some time
now in Latin America, should we seek to take back the
state or not? My own opinion is that we should,
through several of the proposals presented in the
article, such as food and energy sovereignty, we can
progressively start to move away from the state,
leading towards more convivial societies. However it
does seem that the state will have to play a part in
this transition, so perhaps we need to think of the
transition from one society to another in different
scales and with different agencies: I.e. What should
we ask from the state? What can we do ourselves in
local and communal terms and how can we continue to
build networks of solidarity or communitarian
entanglements at the regional, and even global level.
<br>
<br>
My thanks again Pallav for sharing and to Ted for a
very insightful and useful analysis.<br>
<br>
Best, <br>
<br>
Carlos <br>
<br>
El sáb, 25 sept 2021 a las 5:06, Pallav Das (<<a
href="mailto:dpallav@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">dpallav@gmail.com</a>>)
escribió:<br>
The "eco-anarchist" transition strategy relies on
“prefiguring” the new social forms in the existing
society. The most effective way to get people to see
the sense and the merits of the new ways is to
establish as many examples of them as possible here
and now. This approach minimizes the chances of
violent conflict; if we persuade large numbers to the
alternative then radical change in structures might be
brought about peacefully.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Friends,<br>
<br>
A new article, "The path to a just and sustainable
society" has been uploaded to the "Radical Ecological
Democracy" website. In the second part of his
discussion on “Eco-anarchism”, Ted Trainer lays out
the core characteristics of a post consumer capitalist
society, operating on the principles of “The Simpler
Way”. Please share the article with your networks and
join the discussion on REDlistserv. The author is
copied here in case you would like to contact him
directly.<br>
<br>
<a
href="https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainable-society/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainable-society/</a><br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Pallav<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.ourproject.org/mailman/listinfo/gta-pedagog" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.ourproject.org/mailman/listinfo/gta-pedagog</a>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.ourproject.org/mailman/listinfo/gta-pedagog">http://lists.ourproject.org/mailman/listinfo/gta-pedagog</a>
</pre>
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