Ecuador as a state form, the proposal for a Partner State...
Dear friends, on the P2P-blog the discussion obout our relation to the state is going on. Ecuador as a state form, the proposal for a ‘Partner State’, and lessons for future Commons Transition Strategies http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/ecuador-as-a-state-form-the-proposal-for-a-par... We can do this discussion in spanish or english. Also we can continue this discussion on the maillists. But like was Orsan Senalp wrote - we have to bring this two language spaces together. many greetings, willi Bogota, Colombia --- Quiliro wrote Great to see Michel’s and Willi’s great perspectives. I wonder what can be done in order to prevent the powerful from abusing the minorities or even the majorities in a stateless society as Michel states. Many times the majorities are manipulated in order to run over people that oppose the powerful, whether these powerful are part of the state or not. Other times, the powerful use violence and bureaucracy to exert their power over the majorities. What can we do in a stateless or stateful society against these abuses? --- my answer dear Quiliro and all, your question, i think, is the most important question. What we have to do for independence in our development of our life environment? Michel and Silke Helfrich think and say that we need the state as a partner state, as a cooperation partner. But we can see in Germany, what is going on. And we can see in Ecuador, what are the results of that. I give here to links to very different writings about the same situation. Dangerous practice of digital mass surveillance must be subject to independent checks and balances – Pillay http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/Media.aspx?IsMediaPage=true&LangID=... Peer to Peer (P2P) Production as the Alternative to Capitalism – A New Communist Horizon http://www.networkedlabour.net/2013/05/peer-to-peer-p2p-production-as-the-al... Navi Pillay and Jakob Rigi act on the same themes on her different backgrounds and her different perspektives. State or people self organization. But this is a pre-step in our thinking and doing. This means, that the first is that we disolve our own slavery system in our thinking. If we create our own perspectives and our ways for that, then we can cooperate with all people without to lost our orientation for our future. Of course, the result is that we are self-responsible for our life and never we can go to any institution to ask for our life basics. We have to do self. But never alone. Here come in the Comunas. The local life community. We break the primitive dualism Individual or state. As single persons we live in communities. This are the constitutional elements for our bigger social societies. State never exist. It is a virtual construction. So, why we should follow any stupid production of thoughts of stupid persons? I don-t understand, why Michel and Franz Nahrada and many other follow this religion. many greetings, willi Bogota, Colombia
Estimado Willi Gracias por tu aporte. El idioma de la lista p2p-es es el español, por lo que no es buena idea "to bring this two language spaces together" imponiendo el inglés, como no lo es enviar el mismo mail a listas con diferentes idiomas. Tú mismo criticaste a los que escribían en inglés a las listas de FLOK. Lo correcto es enviarlo a diferentes listas, cada una con su idioma, o escribir en todos los idiomas para todas Un abrazo Bernardo Dear Willi Thanks for your comment. The commom language of p2p-es is Spanish, so I think it is not a good idea "to bring this two language spaces together" imposing English, as it is not a good practice to send the same mail with just one language to different lists. You were critic with those who wrote in English in FLOK lists. The proper could be to send the message in different languages to different lists or to write in both languages and send the message Best Bernardo 2014-07-17 13:44 GMT-03:00 willi uebelherr <[email protected]>:
Dear friends,
on the P2P-blog the discussion obout our relation to the state is going on.
Ecuador as a state form, the proposal for a ‘Partner State’, and lessons for future Commons Transition Strategies
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/ecuador-as-a-state-form-the-proposal-for-a-par...
We can do this discussion in spanish or english. Also we can continue this discussion on the maillists. But like was Orsan Senalp wrote - we have to bring this two language spaces together.
many greetings, willi Bogota, Colombia
--- Quiliro wrote
Great to see Michel’s and Willi’s great perspectives.
I wonder what can be done in order to prevent the powerful from abusing the minorities or even the majorities in a stateless society as Michel states. Many times the majorities are manipulated in order to run over people that oppose the powerful, whether these powerful are part of the state or not. Other times, the powerful use violence and bureaucracy to exert their power over the majorities. What can we do in a stateless or stateful society against these abuses?
--- my answer
dear Quiliro and all,
your question, i think, is the most important question. What we have to do for independence in our development of our life environment?
Michel and Silke Helfrich think and say that we need the state as a partner state, as a cooperation partner. But we can see in Germany, what is going on. And we can see in Ecuador, what are the results of that.
I give here to links to very different writings about the same situation.
Dangerous practice of digital mass surveillance must be subject to independent checks and balances – Pillay
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/Media.aspx?IsMediaPage=true&LangID=...
Peer to Peer (P2P) Production as the Alternative to Capitalism – A New Communist Horizon
http://www.networkedlabour.net/2013/05/peer-to-peer-p2p-production-as-the-al...
Navi Pillay and Jakob Rigi act on the same themes on her different backgrounds and her different perspektives. State or people self organization. But this is a pre-step in our thinking and doing.
This means, that the first is that we disolve our own slavery system in our thinking. If we create our own perspectives and our ways for that, then we can cooperate with all people without to lost our orientation for our future.
Of course, the result is that we are self-responsible for our life and never we can go to any institution to ask for our life basics. We have to do self. But never alone.
Here come in the Comunas. The local life community. We break the primitive dualism Individual or state. As single persons we live in communities. This are the constitutional elements for our bigger social societies.
State never exist. It is a virtual construction. So, why we should follow any stupid production of thoughts of stupid persons? I don-t understand, why Michel and Franz Nahrada and many other follow this religion.
many greetings, willi Bogota, Colombia
-- www.futuramedia.net www.codigo-abierto.cc @bernardosampa (twitter) / @futura_media São Paulo +55 11 43044380 (fijo) +55 11 84881620 (celular)
Querido Bernardo, sí, es absolutamente cierto. Discúlpeme. Tenemos que escribir en ambos idiomas, si queremos hacer esto. Tal vez vamos a encontrar una manera de abrir las puertas cerradas. muchas saludas, willi Dear Bernardo, yes, it is absolutely true. Excuse me. We have to write in both language, if we want to do this. Maybe we will find out a way to open the closed doors. many greetings, willi Am 7/17/2014 1:33 PM, schrieb Bernardo Gutiérrez:
Estimado Willi
Gracias por tu aporte. El idioma de la lista p2p-es es el español, por lo que no es buena idea "to bring this two language spaces together" imponiendo el inglés, como no lo es enviar el mismo mail a listas con diferentes idiomas. Tú mismo criticaste a los que escribían en inglés a las listas de FLOK. Lo correcto es enviarlo a diferentes listas, cada una con su idioma, o escribir en todos los idiomas para todas
Un abrazo Bernardo
Dear Willi
Thanks for your comment. The commom language of p2p-es is Spanish, so I think it is not a good idea "to bring this two language spaces together" imposing English, as it is not a good practice to send the same mail with just one language to different lists. You were critic with those who wrote in English in FLOK lists. The proper could be to send the message in different languages to different lists or to write in both languages and send the message
Best Bernardo
Am 7/17/2014 1:33 PM, schrieb Bernardo Gutiérrez:
Estimado Willi
Gracias por tu aporte. El idioma de la lista p2p-es es el español, por lo que no es buena idea "to bring this two language spaces together" imponiendo el inglés, como no lo es enviar el mismo mail a listas con diferentes idiomas. Tú mismo criticaste a los que escribían en inglés a las listas de FLOK. Lo correcto es enviarlo a diferentes listas, cada una con su idioma, o escribir en todos los idiomas para todas
Un abrazo Bernardo
Dear Willi
Thanks for your comment. The commom language of p2p-es is Spanish, so I think it is not a good idea "to bring this two language spaces together" imposing English, as it is not a good practice to send the same mail with just one language to different lists. You were critic with those who wrote in English in FLOK lists. The proper could be to send the message in different languages to different lists or to write in both languages and send the message
Best Bernardo
Dear friends, this is a very clear and correct position. I think, the writers write in two languages, if they addressed the two language spaces. Normally it is enough to use google translation between english and spanish to understand. A good english we can translate and understand. A good spanish also. (not for me, because my english is very bad). The other is our interest to distribute some texts from one language space to the other. We need the support from this people, they speak both languages. many greetings, willi Querid@s amig@s, esta es una posición muy clara y correcta. Creo que, los escritores escriben en dos idiomas, si se dirigían los dos espacios lingüísticos. Normalmente es suficiente con utilizar traducción de Google entre Inglés y español para entender. Un buen Inglés podemos traducir y entender. Un buen español también. (no para mí, porque mi inglés es muy malo). El otro es nuestro interés para distribuir algunos de los textos de un espacio idioma a otro. Necesitamos el apoyo de este pueblo, hablan los dos idiomas. Muchas saludas, willi
It May sound off the track, yet while I was checking FLOK management page, I did see list of experts and advisors and who suggested them. I saw that Daniel Vasquez did recommend as macro economic advisor famous ex head of IMF, later it's self-critical economist!! Can anyone confirm and explain what is the logic of appointing Joseph Stiglitz as an high level expert and advisor to a project like this, aiming Ecuador's transition to a FLOK society? For me these are kind of really problematic co-optative steps needs to be avoided and criticized. I have been waiting and waiting from Bernardo, Xabier and Daniel any kind of reaction or self-reflexive report, noting heard anything or am not yet aware of. Than I started to get suspicious are there Conscious steps taken and are we being pulled in alternative p2p - commons Keynesian project? So partner state can be sounding very nice theory, yet at the end it can turn into they are state, some of us partners and business goes usual for the billions, and the commons.. What kind of consciousness and check and balance we will be able to build. Another initiative I found about is Global Marshall Plan initiative to which some of out dear friends got involved, under the UN framework promoting An idea of Commons Charters instead of Millennium Goals, which was scheduled to 2015. I again am not against involvement and engagement with the state to open, transform, and dissolve it from bottom to up, yet with giant capitalist partners like al gore, bill gates, bono, Soros, elite groups like club of Rome, club of Budapest, ... A child can guess where would the game end up! Do not want to judgmental but we have seen this movie many times, perfect ideas and hypotheses, communism itself may easily be spoiled. P2p and commons should be protected carefully... Orsan
On 18 Jul 2014, at 04:23, willi uebelherr <[email protected]> wrote:
Am 7/17/2014 1:33 PM, schrieb Bernardo Gutiérrez:
Estimado Willi
Gracias por tu aporte. El idioma de la lista p2p-es es el español, por lo que no es buena idea "to bring this two language spaces together" imponiendo el inglés, como no lo es enviar el mismo mail a listas con diferentes idiomas. Tú mismo criticaste a los que escribían en inglés a las listas de FLOK. Lo correcto es enviarlo a diferentes listas, cada una con su idioma, o escribir en todos los idiomas para todas
Un abrazo Bernardo
Dear Willi
Thanks for your comment. The commom language of p2p-es is Spanish, so I think it is not a good idea "to bring this two language spaces together" imposing English, as it is not a good practice to send the same mail with just one language to different lists. You were critic with those who wrote in English in FLOK lists. The proper could be to send the message in different languages to different lists or to write in both languages and send the message
Best Bernardo
Dear friends,
this is a very clear and correct position. I think, the writers write in two languages, if they addressed the two language spaces. Normally it is enough to use google translation between english and spanish to understand. A good english we can translate and understand. A good spanish also. (not for me, because my english is very bad).
The other is our interest to distribute some texts from one language space to the other. We need the support from this people, they speak both languages.
many greetings, willi
Querid@s amig@s,
esta es una posición muy clara y correcta. Creo que, los escritores escriben en dos idiomas, si se dirigían los dos espacios lingüísticos. Normalmente es suficiente con utilizar traducción de Google entre Inglés y español para entender. Un buen Inglés podemos traducir y entender. Un buen español también. (no para mí, porque mi inglés es muy malo).
El otro es nuestro interés para distribuir algunos de los textos de un espacio idioma a otro. Necesitamos el apoyo de este pueblo, hablan los dos idiomas.
Muchas saludas, willi
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
El vie 18 jul 2014 12:43:25 ECT, Orsan Senalp escribió:
It May sound off the track, yet while I was checking FLOK management page, I did see list of experts and advisors and who suggested them. I saw that Daniel Vasquez did recommend as macro economic advisor famous ex head of IMF, later it's self-critical economist!! Can anyone confirm and explain what is the logic of appointing Joseph Stiglitz as an high level expert and advisor to a project like this, aiming Ecuador's transition to a FLOK society? For me these are kind of really problematic co-optative steps needs to be avoided and criticized. I have been waiting and waiting from Bernardo, Xabier and Daniel any kind of reaction or self-reflexive report, noting heard anything or am not yet aware of. Than I started to get suspicious are there Conscious steps taken and are we being pulled in alternative p2p - commons Keynesian project? So partner state can be sounding very nice theory, yet at the end it can turn into they are state, some of us partners and business goes usual for the bi llions, and the commons.. What kind of consciousness and check and balance we will be able to build. Another initiative I found about is Global Marshall Plan initiative to which some of out dear friends got involved, under the UN framework promoting An idea of Commons Charters instead of Millennium Goals, which was scheduled to 2015. I again am not against involvement and engagement with the state to open, transform, and dissolve it from bottom to up, yet with giant capitalist partners like al gore, bill gates, bono, Soros, elite groups like club of Rome, club of Budapest, ... A child can guess where would the game end up! Do not want to judgmental but we have seen this movie many times, perfect ideas and hypotheses, communism itself may easily be spoiled. P2p and commons should be protected carefully... Orsan
Exactly that is what I have meant all this time. If we do not have very strong values and if we do not act in their line regardless of the temporary benefit we may achieve, the final result will be catastrophic even if the intentions are good. People will even call you as I was called by Bernardo "destructive, irresponsible, disrespectful and manipulative" and "trol". Similar adjectives were used against me by the other Spaniards. I do not understand why those words were used against me when the only things I did are: saying that using Twitter and Facebook must not be done in a project that defends the commons and translating Gordon's evaluation of FLOK which had its analysis of the underlying political arena. Perhaps Cook's report it is very speculative. But I would say it is very much close to the perspective I attained from my own participation from the start of the process until I was first censored and latter removed from all of FLOK processes. -- Saludos libres, Quiliro Ordóñez 600 8579
Orsan Please, dont send mails in English to p2p in Spanish, dont mix lists, that is not a Netiquette practice. Some people are reclaiming. Copying the message to close list as p2p official one is a wrong practice> our messages wont arrive there. Next week you will read the FLOK offial version, with some auto-critic Thanks Orsan Por favor, no escribas a esta lista en inglés y no mezcles listas, no es una práctica apropiada e la Netiqueta. Algunas personas están enfadadas. Copiar mensajes a listas cerradas, como la de la p2p, tampoco es una buena práctica> nuestros mensajes no llegarán. La semana que viene se publicará el informe de FLOK, con algunos elementos auto-críticos Gracias Bernardo 2014-07-18 15:10 GMT-03:00 Quiliro Ordóñez Baca <[email protected]>:
El vie 18 jul 2014 12:43:25 ECT, Orsan Senalp escribió:
It May sound off the track, yet while I was checking FLOK management page, I did see list of experts and advisors and who suggested them. I saw that Daniel Vasquez did recommend as macro economic advisor famous ex head of IMF, later it's self-critical economist!! Can anyone confirm and explain what is the logic of appointing Joseph Stiglitz as an high level expert and advisor to a project like this, aiming Ecuador's transition to a FLOK society? For me these are kind of really problematic co-optative steps needs to be avoided and criticized. I have been waiting and waiting from Bernardo, Xabier and Daniel any kind of reaction or self-reflexive report, noting heard anything or am not yet aware of. Than I started to get suspicious are there Conscious steps taken and are we being pulled in alternative p2p - commons Keynesian project? So partner state can be sounding very nice theory, yet at the end it can turn into they are state, some of us partners and business goes usual for the bi llions, and the commons.. What kind of consciousness and check and balance we will be able to build. Another initiative I found about is Global Marshall Plan initiative to which some of out dear friends got involved, under the UN framework promoting An idea of Commons Charters instead of Millennium Goals, which was scheduled to 2015. I again am not against involvement and engagement with the state to open, transform, and dissolve it from bottom to up, yet with giant capitalist partners like al gore, bill gates, bono, Soros, elite groups like club of Rome, club of Budapest, ... A child can guess where would the game end up! Do not want to judgmental but we have seen this movie many times, perfect ideas and hypotheses, communism itself may easily be spoiled. P2p and commons should be protected carefully... Orsan
Exactly that is what I have meant all this time. If we do not have very strong values and if we do not act in their line regardless of the temporary benefit we may achieve, the final result will be catastrophic even if the intentions are good. People will even call you as I was called by Bernardo "destructive, irresponsible, disrespectful and manipulative" and "trol". Similar adjectives were used against me by the other Spaniards. I do not understand why those words were used against me when the only things I did are: saying that using Twitter and Facebook must not be done in a project that defends the commons and translating Gordon's evaluation of FLOK which had its analysis of the underlying political arena. Perhaps Cook's report it is very speculative. But I would say it is very much close to the perspective I attained from my own participation from the start of the process until I was first censored and latter removed from all of FLOK processes.
-- Saludos libres, Quiliro Ordóñez 600 8579
-- www.futuramedia.net www.codigo-abierto.cc @bernardosampa (twitter) / @futura_media São Paulo +55 11 43044380 (fijo) +55 11 84881620 (celular)
El vie 18 jul 2014 12:43:25 ECT, Orsan Senalp escribió:
It May sound off the track, yet while I was checking FLOK management page, I did see list of experts and advisors and who suggested them. I saw that Daniel Vasquez did recommend as macro economic advisor famous ex head of IMF, later it's self-critical economist!! Can anyone confirm and explain what is the logic of appointing Joseph Stiglitz as an high level expert and advisor to a project like this, aiming Ecuador's transition to a FLOK society? For me these are kind of really problematic co-optative steps needs to be avoided and criticized. I have been waiting and waiting from Bernardo, Xabier and Daniel any kind of reaction or self-reflexive report, noting heard anything or am not yet aware of. Than I started to get suspicious are there Conscious steps taken and are we being pulled in alternative p2p - commons Keynesian project? So partner state can be sounding very nice theory, yet at the end it can turn into they are state, some of us partners and business goes usual for the bi llions, and the commons.. What kind of consciousness and check and balance we will be able to build. Another initiative I found about is Global Marshall Plan initiative to which some of out dear friends got involved, under the UN framework promoting An idea of Commons Charters instead of Millennium Goals, which was scheduled to 2015. I again am not against involvement and engagement with the state to open, transform, and dissolve it from bottom to up, yet with giant capitalist partners like al gore, bill gates, bono, Soros, elite groups like club of Rome, club of Budapest, ... A child can guess where would the game end up! Do not want to judgmental but we have seen this movie many times, perfect ideas and hypotheses, communism itself may easily be spoiled. P2p and commons should be protected carefully... Orsan
Exactly that is what I have meant all this time from the start of PLOK. If we do not have very strong values and if we do not act in their line regardless of the temporary benefit we may achieve, the final result will be catastrophic and contrary to the main values even when the intentions are good. If you ask people to be consistent and they do not have good intentions, they will even call you as I was called by Bernardo "destructive, irresponsible, disrespectful and manipulative" and "trol". Similar adjectives were used against me by the other Spaniards. I do not understand why those words were used against me when the only things I did are: saying that using Twitter and Facebook must not be done in a project that defends the commons and translating Gordon's evaluation of FLOK which had its analysis of the underlying political arena. Perhaps Cook's report it is very speculative. But I would say it is very much close to the perspective I attained from my own participation from the start of the process until I was first censored and latter removed from all of FLOK processes. -- Saludos libres, Quiliro Ordóñez 600 8579
Am 7/18/2014 1:15 PM, schrieb Quiliro Ordóñez Baca:
...
If you ask people to be consistent and they do not have good intentions, they will even call you as I was called by Bernardo "destructive, irresponsible, disrespectful and manipulative" and "trol". Similar adjectives were used against me by the other Spaniards. ...
Querid@s amig@s, ne centraré sólo en la cuestión de Quiliro. ¿Por qué le llamas destructiva e irresponsable, irrespetuoso, manipulador y un troll? Todos sabemos que estos términos se utilizan sobre todo cuando una discusión sobre el contenido va a ser excluida. Y todos sabemos que las contradicciones y los conflictos son la base para el desarrollo. Por lo tanto me pregunto: ¿Quieres evitar el desarrollo? Muchas saludas, willi Dear friends, I will focus only on the question of Quiliro. Why do you call him destructive, irresponsible, disrespectful, manipulative and a troll? We all know that these terms are mostly used when a discussion on the content to be bypassed. And we all know that contradictions and conflicts are the basis for development. Therefore i ask you: Do you want to prevent the development? many greetings, willi
El vie 18 jul 2014 23:44:44 ECT, willi uebelherr escribió:
Am 7/18/2014 1:15 PM, schrieb Quiliro Ordóñez Baca:
...
If you ask people to be consistent and they do not have good intentions, they will even call you as I was called by Bernardo "destructive, irresponsible, disrespectful and manipulative" and "trol". Similar adjectives were used against me by the other Spaniards. ...
Querid@s amig@s,
ne centraré sólo en la cuestión de Quiliro. ¿Por qué le llamas destructiva e irresponsable, irrespetuoso, manipulador y un troll?
Eso es lo que me llamó Bernardo en un correo. Otros calificativos similares usaron los otros españoles.
Todos sabemos que estos términos se utilizan sobre todo cuando una discusión sobre el contenido va a ser excluida. Y todos sabemos que las contradicciones y los conflictos son la base para el desarrollo.
Por lo tanto me pregunto: ¿Quieres evitar el desarrollo?
Supongo que las personas que me censuraron y calificaron así querían evitar la riqueza de la diversidad de opiniones por lo que querían desacreditarme.
I will focus only on the question of Quiliro. Why do you call him destructive, irresponsible, disrespectful, manipulative and a troll?
That is what Bernardo called me in an email. Other similar adjectives were used by the other Spaniards.
We all know that these terms are mostly used when a discussion on the content to be bypassed. And we all know that contradictions and conflicts are the basis for development.
Therefore i ask you: Do you want to prevent the development?
I suppose that the people that censored and insulted me wanted to avoid the rich diversity of opinion so they wanted to discredit me. -- Saludos libres, Quiliro Ordóñez 600 8579
Hola! Un día hicimos una lista de gente interesante con la que comenzar a dialogar. Metí a Stiglitz como una de esas personas, pero ni siquiera llegamos a contactar con el, se descartó. Ese borrador de lista de gente con la que hablar acabó en alguno de los documentos de trabajo, y cómo publicamos incluso los borradores de lo que vamos pensando/discutiendo pues ahí quedó publicado, no me parece mal que se vean esos borradores o versiones previas y lo que hemos hecho y descartado. Un abrazo Orsan. El 18/07/14 12:43, Orsan Senalp escribió:
It May sound off the track, yet while I was checking FLOK management page, I did see list of experts and advisors and who suggested them. I saw that Daniel Vasquez did recommend as macro economic advisor famous ex head of IMF, later it's self-critical economist!! Can anyone confirm and explain what is the logic of appointing Joseph Stiglitz as an high level expert and advisor to a project like this, aiming Ecuador's transition to a FLOK society? For me these are kind of really problematic co-optative steps needs to be avoided and criticized. I have been waiting and waiting from Bernardo, Xabier and Daniel any kind of reaction or self-reflexive report, noting heard anything or am not yet aware of. Than I started to get suspicious are there Conscious steps taken and are we being pulled in alternative p2p - commons Keynesian project? So partner state can be sounding very nice theory, yet at the end it can turn into they are state, some of us partners and business goes usual for the bi llions, and the commons.. What kind of consciousness and check and balance we will be able to build. Another initiative I found about is Global Marshall Plan initiative to which some of out dear friends got involved, under the UN framework promoting An idea of Commons Charters instead of Millennium Goals, which was scheduled to 2015. I again am not against involvement and engagement with the state to open, transform, and dissolve it from bottom to up, yet with giant capitalist partners like al gore, bill gates, bono, Soros, elite groups like club of Rome, club of Budapest, ... A child can guess where would the game end up! Do not want to judgmental but we have seen this movie many times, perfect ideas and hypotheses, communism itself may easily be spoiled. P2p and commons should be protected carefully... Orsan
On 18 Jul 2014, at 04:23, willi uebelherr <[email protected]> wrote:
Am 7/17/2014 1:33 PM, schrieb Bernardo Gutiérrez:
Estimado Willi
Gracias por tu aporte. El idioma de la lista p2p-es es el español, por lo que no es buena idea "to bring this two language spaces together" imponiendo el inglés, como no lo es enviar el mismo mail a listas con diferentes idiomas. Tú mismo criticaste a los que escribían en inglés a las listas de FLOK. Lo correcto es enviarlo a diferentes listas, cada una con su idioma, o escribir en todos los idiomas para todas
Un abrazo Bernardo
Dear Willi
Thanks for your comment. The commom language of p2p-es is Spanish, so I think it is not a good idea "to bring this two language spaces together" imposing English, as it is not a good practice to send the same mail with just one language to different lists. You were critic with those who wrote in English in FLOK lists. The proper could be to send the message in different languages to different lists or to write in both languages and send the message
Best Bernardo
Dear friends,
this is a very clear and correct position. I think, the writers write in two languages, if they addressed the two language spaces. Normally it is enough to use google translation between english and spanish to understand. A good english we can translate and understand. A good spanish also. (not for me, because my english is very bad).
The other is our interest to distribute some texts from one language space to the other. We need the support from this people, they speak both languages.
many greetings, willi
Querid@s amig@s,
esta es una posición muy clara y correcta. Creo que, los escritores escriben en dos idiomas, si se dirigían los dos espacios lingüísticos. Normalmente es suficiente con utilizar traducción de Google entre Inglés y español para entender. Un buen Inglés podemos traducir y entender. Un buen español también. (no para mí, porque mi inglés es muy malo).
El otro es nuestro interés para distribuir algunos de los textos de un espacio idioma a otro. Necesitamos el apoyo de este pueblo, hablan los dos idiomas.
Muchas saludas, willi
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
2014-07-18 16:01 GMT-03:00 Daniel <[email protected]>:
Hola!
Un día hicimos una lista de gente interesante con la que comenzar a dialogar. Metí a Stiglitz como una de esas personas, pero ni siquiera llegamos a contactar con el, se descartó.
Ese borrador de lista de gente con la que hablar acabó en alguno de los documentos de trabajo, y cómo publicamos incluso los borradores de lo que vamos pensando/discutiendo pues ahí quedó publicado, no me parece mal que se vean esos borradores o versiones previas y lo que hemos hecho y descartado.
Un abrazo Orsan.
El 18/07/14 12:43, Orsan Senalp escribió:
It May sound off the track, yet while I was checking FLOK management page, I did see list of experts and advisors and who suggested them. I saw that Daniel Vasquez did recommend as macro economic advisor famous ex head of IMF, later it's self-critical economist!! Can anyone confirm and explain what is the logic of appointing Joseph Stiglitz as an high level expert and advisor to a project like this, aiming Ecuador's transition to a FLOK society? For me these are kind of really problematic co-optative steps needs to be avoided and criticized. I have been waiting and waiting from Bernardo, Xabier and Daniel any kind of reaction or self-reflexive report, noting heard anything or am not yet aware of. Than I started to get suspicious are there Conscious steps taken and are we being pulled in alternative p2p - commons Keynesian project? So partner state can be sounding very nice theory, yet at the end it can turn into they are state, some of us partners and business goes usual for the bi llions, and the commons.. What kind of consciousness and check and balance we will be able to build. Another initiative I found about is Global Marshall Plan initiative to which some of out dear friends got involved, under the UN framework promoting An idea of Commons Charters instead of Millennium Goals, which was scheduled to 2015. I again am not against involvement and engagement with the state to open, transform, and dissolve it from bottom to up, yet with giant capitalist partners like al gore, bill gates, bono, Soros, elite groups like club of Rome, club of Budapest, ... A child can guess where would the game end up! Do not want to judgmental but we have seen this movie many times, perfect ideas and hypotheses, communism itself may easily be spoiled. P2p and commons should be protected carefully... Orsan
On 18 Jul 2014, at 04:23, willi uebelherr <[email protected]> wrote:
Am 7/17/2014 1:33 PM, schrieb Bernardo Gutiérrez:
Estimado Willi
Gracias por tu aporte. El idioma de la lista p2p-es es el español, por lo que no es buena idea "to bring this two language spaces together" imponiendo el inglés, como no lo es enviar el mismo mail a listas con diferentes idiomas. Tú mismo criticaste a los que escribían en inglés a las listas de FLOK. Lo correcto es enviarlo a diferentes listas, cada una con su idioma, o escribir en todos los idiomas para todas
Un abrazo Bernardo
Dear Willi
Thanks for your comment. The commom language of p2p-es is Spanish, so I think it is not a good idea "to bring this two language spaces together" imposing English, as it is not a good practice to send the same mail with just one language to different lists. You were critic with those who wrote in English in FLOK lists. The proper could be to send the message in different languages to different lists or to write in both languages and send the message
Best Bernardo
Dear friends,
this is a very clear and correct position. I think, the writers write in two languages, if they addressed the two language spaces. Normally it is enough to use google translation between english and spanish to understand. A good english we can translate and understand. A good spanish also. (not for me, because my english is very bad).
The other is our interest to distribute some texts from one language space to the other. We need the support from this people, they speak both languages.
many greetings, willi
Querid@s amig@s,
esta es una posición muy clara y correcta. Creo que, los escritores escriben en dos idiomas, si se dirigían los dos espacios lingüísticos. Normalmente es suficiente con utilizar traducción de Google entre Inglés y español para entender. Un buen Inglés podemos traducir y entender. Un buen español también. (no para mí, porque mi inglés es muy malo).
El otro es nuestro interés para distribuir algunos de los textos de un espacio idioma a otro. Necesitamos el apoyo de este pueblo, hablan los dos idiomas.
Muchas saludas, willi
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Queridos amigos y amigas, Mantengo mis lecturas muy activas en la lista. Ahora, creo necesario escribir, ya que aunque puedo leer inglés, estoy en la lista de español de P2P. Es bastante frustrante que se manden muchos mensajes diciendo que no es escriba en inglés a esta lista y se siga haciendo por parte de las mismas personas y otras nuevas. Me parece que se está faltando al cuidado de lxs miembrxs de esta lista, y creo que ya hubieron suficientes avisos al respecto. Me uno a la solicitud urgente de que no siga pasando esto. Les mando un abrazo Santiago
Yo révi a solution. Nwesotros podemos nos comunicar in portunglishñol. Is mucho easy the comunication. Yo thinko que no exist problema, becausa the pipou is mucho creativo aqui. []s jorge Em 19-07-2014 01:34, Santiago Hoerth Moura escreveu:
2014-07-18 16:01 GMT-03:00 Daniel <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>:
Hola!
Un día hicimos una lista de gente interesante con la que comenzar a dialogar. Metí a Stiglitz como una de esas personas, pero ni siquiera llegamos a contactar con el, se descartó.
Ese borrador de lista de gente con la que hablar acabó en alguno de los documentos de trabajo, y cómo publicamos incluso los borradores de lo que vamos pensando/discutiendo pues ahí quedó publicado, no me parece mal que se vean esos borradores o versiones previas y lo que hemos hecho y descartado.
Un abrazo Orsan.
El 18/07/14 12:43, Orsan Senalp escribió: > It May sound off the track, yet while I was checking FLOK management page, I did see list of experts and advisors and who suggested them. I saw that Daniel Vasquez did recommend as macro economic advisor famous ex head of IMF, later it's self-critical economist!! Can anyone confirm and explain what is the logic of appointing Joseph Stiglitz as an high level expert and advisor to a project like this, aiming Ecuador's transition to a FLOK society? For me these are kind of really problematic co-optative steps needs to be avoided and criticized. I have been waiting and waiting from Bernardo, Xabier and Daniel any kind of reaction or self-reflexive report, noting heard anything or am not yet aware of. Than I started to get suspicious are there Conscious steps taken and are we being pulled in alternative p2p - commons Keynesian project? So partner state can be sounding very nice theory, yet at the end it can turn into they are state, some of us partners and business goes usual for the bi llions, and the commons.. What kind of consciousness and check and balance we will be able to build. Another initiative I found about is Global Marshall Plan initiative to which some of out dear friends got involved, under the UN framework promoting An idea of Commons Charters instead of Millennium Goals, which was scheduled to 2015. I again am not against involvement and engagement with the state to open, transform, and dissolve it from bottom to up, yet with giant capitalist partners like al gore, bill gates, bono, Soros, elite groups like club of Rome, club of Budapest, ... A child can guess where would the game end up! Do not want to judgmental but we have seen this movie many times, perfect ideas and hypotheses, communism itself may easily be spoiled. P2p and commons should be protected carefully... > Orsan > > > >> On 18 Jul 2014, at 04:23, willi uebelherr <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> Am 7/17/2014 1:33 PM, schrieb Bernardo Gutiérrez: >>> Estimado Willi >>> >>> Gracias por tu aporte. El idioma de la lista p2p-es es el español, por lo >>> que no es buena idea "to bring this two language spaces together" >>> imponiendo el inglés, como no lo es enviar el mismo mail a listas con >>> diferentes idiomas. Tú mismo criticaste a los que escribían en inglés a las >>> listas de FLOK. Lo correcto es enviarlo a diferentes listas, cada una con >>> su idioma, o escribir en todos los idiomas para todas >>> >>> Un abrazo >>> Bernardo >>> >>> Dear Willi >>> >>> Thanks for your comment. The commom language of p2p-es is Spanish, so I >>> think it is not a good idea "to bring this two language spaces together" >>> imposing English, as it is not a good practice to send the same mail with >>> just one language to different lists. You were critic with those who wrote >>> in English in FLOK lists. The proper could be to send the message in >>> different languages to different lists or to write in both languages and >>> send the message >>> >>> Best >>> Bernardo >> >> Dear friends, >> >> this is a very clear and correct position. I think, the writers write in >> two languages, if they addressed the two language spaces. Normally it is >> enough to use google translation between english and spanish to >> understand. A good english we can translate and understand. A good >> spanish also. (not for me, because my english is very bad). >> >> The other is our interest to distribute some texts from one language >> space to the other. We need the support from this people, they speak >> both languages. >> >> many greetings, willi >> >> >> Querid@s amig@s, >> >> esta es una posición muy clara y correcta. Creo que, los escritores >> escriben en dos idiomas, si se dirigían los dos espacios lingüísticos. >> Normalmente es suficiente con utilizar traducción de Google entre Inglés >> y español para entender. Un buen Inglés podemos traducir y entender. Un >> buen español también. (no para mí, porque mi inglés es muy malo). >> >> El otro es nuestro interés para distribuir algunos de los textos de un >> espacio idioma a otro. Necesitamos el apoyo de este pueblo, hablan los >> dos idiomas. >> >> Muchas saludas, willi >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list >> http://www.p2pfoundation.net >> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > >
Queridos amigos y amigas,
Mantengo mis lecturas muy activas en la lista. Ahora, creo necesario escribir, ya que aunque puedo leer inglés, estoy en la lista de español de P2P. Es bastante frustrante que se manden muchos mensajes diciendo que no es escriba en inglés a esta lista y se siga haciendo por parte de las mismas personas y otras nuevas. Me parece que se está faltando al cuidado de lxs miembrxs de esta lista, y creo que ya hubieron suficientes avisos al respecto. Me uno a la solicitud urgente de que no siga pasando esto. Les mando un abrazo Santiago
On 19/07/14 01:34, Santiago Hoerth Moura wrote:
Queridos amigos y amigas,
Mantengo mis lecturas muy activas en la lista. Ahora, creo necesario escribir, ya que aunque puedo leer inglés, estoy en la lista de español de P2P. Es bastante frustrante que se manden muchos mensajes diciendo que no es escriba en inglés a esta lista y se siga haciendo por parte de las mismas personas y otras nuevas. Me parece que se está faltando al cuidado de lxs miembrxs de esta lista, y creo que ya hubieron suficientes avisos al respecto. Me uno a la solicitud urgente de que no siga pasando esto.
suscribo totalmente lo que dice Santiago, además del asunto lingüístico, es de muy mala educación enviar mensajes a dos listas a la vez, especialmente cuando algunos no conseguimos suscribirnos a las listas. El envió cruzao de mensajes [http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Env%C3%ADo_cruzado] es una mala práctica. un abrazo, xabier -- wget -O - http://sindominio.net/~xabier/xabier.gpg.asc | gpg --import xabier BARANDIARAN | http://www.barandiaran.net "There is no need for fear or hope, but only to look for new weapons" DELEUZE
Hola: Siguiendo la solicitud de Santiago y Antonio (en otro hilo), me gustaría pedir que se dejase de utilizar esta lista para tratar asuntos exclusivamente relativos al proyecto FLOK y a discusiones personales, para eso existen otras vías y otras listas. Esta lista se construyó gracias al esfuerzo colectivo y la solidaridad de muchas personas y siempre ha funcionado muy bien hasta que ciertas personas habéis comenzado a tratar destruirla, consciente o inconscientemente. Así que me gustaría solicitar que dejéis de echar por tierra la labor e ilusiones de tanta gente que venimos colaborando y debatiendo a través de esta lista desde hace tiempo. Muchas gracias :) Un abrazo! Jon Aguirre Such PAISAJE TRANSVERSAL www.paisajetransversal.com www.paisajetransversal.org El 19/07/2014 12:59, "xabier" <[email protected]> escribió:
On 19/07/14 01:34, Santiago Hoerth Moura wrote:
Queridos amigos y amigas,
Mantengo mis lecturas muy activas en la lista. Ahora, creo necesario escribir, ya que aunque puedo leer inglés, estoy en la lista de español de P2P. Es bastante frustrante que se manden muchos mensajes diciendo que no es escriba en inglés a esta lista y se siga haciendo por parte de las mismas personas y otras nuevas. Me parece que se está faltando al cuidado de lxs miembrxs de esta lista, y creo que ya hubieron suficientes avisos al respecto. Me uno a la solicitud urgente de que no siga pasando esto.
suscribo totalmente lo que dice Santiago, además del asunto lingüístico, es de muy mala educación enviar mensajes a dos listas a la vez, especialmente cuando algunos no conseguimos suscribirnos a las listas. El envió cruzao de mensajes [http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Env%C3%ADo_cruzado] es una mala práctica.
un abrazo,
xabier
-- wget -O - http://sindominio.net/~xabier/xabier.gpg.asc | gpg --import
xabier BARANDIARAN | http://www.barandiaran.net
"There is no need for fear or hope, but only to look for new weapons" DELEUZE
exacto! no se puede decir mejor, solicito lo mismo. Gracias Jon El 19/07/2014, a las 16:26, Jon Aguirre <[email protected]> escribió:
Hola:
Siguiendo la solicitud de Santiago y Antonio (en otro hilo), me gustaría pedir que se dejase de utilizar esta lista para tratar asuntos exclusivamente relativos al proyecto FLOK y a discusiones personales, para eso existen otras vías y otras listas.
Esta lista se construyó gracias al esfuerzo colectivo y la solidaridad de muchas personas y siempre ha funcionado muy bien hasta que ciertas personas habéis comenzado a tratar destruirla, consciente o inconscientemente.
Así que me gustaría solicitar que dejéis de echar por tierra la labor e ilusiones de tanta gente que venimos colaborando y debatiendo a través de esta lista desde hace tiempo.
Muchas gracias :)
Un abrazo!
Jon Aguirre Such PAISAJE TRANSVERSAL www.paisajetransversal.com www.paisajetransversal.org
El 19/07/2014 12:59, "xabier" <[email protected]> escribió:
On 19/07/14 01:34, Santiago Hoerth Moura wrote:
Queridos amigos y amigas,
Mantengo mis lecturas muy activas en la lista. Ahora, creo necesario escribir, ya que aunque puedo leer inglés, estoy en la lista de español de P2P. Es bastante frustrante que se manden muchos mensajes diciendo que no es escriba en inglés a esta lista y se siga haciendo por parte de las mismas personas y otras nuevas. Me parece que se está faltando al cuidado de lxs miembrxs de esta lista, y creo que ya hubieron suficientes avisos al respecto. Me uno a la solicitud urgente de que no siga pasando esto.
suscribo totalmente lo que dice Santiago, además del asunto lingüístico, es de muy mala educación enviar mensajes a dos listas a la vez, especialmente cuando algunos no conseguimos suscribirnos a las listas. El envió cruzao de mensajes [http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Env%C3%ADo_cruzado] es una mala práctica.
un abrazo,
xabier
-- wget -O - http://sindominio.net/~xabier/xabier.gpg.asc | gpg --import
xabier BARANDIARAN | http://www.barandiaran.net
"There is no need for fear or hope, but only to look for new weapons" DELEUZE
On 19/07/14 16:32, Antonio Huelva wrote:
exacto! no se puede decir mejor, solicito lo mismo.
+1
Gracias Jon
El 19/07/2014, a las 16:26, Jon Aguirre <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> escribió:
Hola:
Siguiendo la solicitud de Santiago y Antonio (en otro hilo), me gustaría pedir que se dejase de utilizar esta lista para tratar asuntos exclusivamente relativos al proyecto FLOK y a discusiones personales, para eso existen otras vías y otras listas.
Esta lista se construyó gracias al esfuerzo colectivo y la solidaridad de muchas personas y siempre ha funcionado muy bien hasta que ciertas personas habéis comenzado a tratar destruirla, consciente o inconscientemente.
Así que me gustaría solicitar que dejéis de echar por tierra la labor e ilusiones de tanta gente que venimos colaborando y debatiendo a través de esta lista desde hace tiempo.
Muchas gracias :)
-- wget -O - http://sindominio.net/~xabier/xabier.gpg.asc | gpg --import xabier BARANDIARAN | http://www.barandiaran.net "There is no need for fear or hope, but only to look for new weapons" DELEUZE
El 19/07/14 09:26, Jon Aguirre escribió:
Hola:
Siguiendo la solicitud de Santiago y Antonio (en otro hilo), me gustaría pedir que se dejase de utilizar esta lista para tratar asuntos exclusivamente relativos al proyecto FLOK y a discusiones personales, para eso existen otras vías y otras listas.
El punto no es atacar a FLOK. Ese es el problema: la percepción de que la expresión de opiniones y su relación con el P2P como un ataque. Los puntos a tomar en cuenta acerca del P2P que son centrales a estos hilos son que: - la censura no debe ser parte de este movimiento aunque se la quiera llamar moderación - lo que se promueve no debe empezar por promoverse afuera sino por practicarse adentro....se debe promover solamente lo que uno ya se hace y no más. - las iniciativas p2p deben nacer, desenvolverse y controlarse desde dentro de una forma consensuada en lugar de ser impositivas y externas forzadas por medio de una autoridad (sea esta mayoritaria o minoritaria) No creo que expresar esto sea destructivo, difamatorio o agresivo y no veo por qué se evita esos temas. -- Saludos libres, Quiliro Ordóñez 600 8579
Hola Quirilo: Cuando quieras desarrollamos una estrategia de mediación para solucionar los conflictos. Mientras tanto agradecería que ceses en tu bombardeo de mensajes. Hay otras vías y espacios para resolver los problemas que planteas, y una lista de correo no es el . medio adecuado. Un abrazo! Jon Aguirre Such PAISAJE TRANSVERSAL www.paisajetransversal.com www.paisajetransversal.org El 19/07/2014 16:47, "Quiliro Ordóñez Baca" <[email protected]> escribió:
El 19/07/14 09:26, Jon Aguirre escribió:
Hola:
Siguiendo la solicitud de Santiago y Antonio (en otro hilo), me gustaría pedir que se dejase de utilizar esta lista para tratar asuntos exclusivamente relativos al proyecto FLOK y a discusiones personales, para eso existen otras vías y otras listas.
El punto no es atacar a FLOK. Ese es el problema: la percepción de que la expresión de opiniones y su relación con el P2P como un ataque.
Los puntos a tomar en cuenta acerca del P2P que son centrales a estos hilos son que: - la censura no debe ser parte de este movimiento aunque se la quiera llamar moderación - lo que se promueve no debe empezar por promoverse afuera sino por practicarse adentro....se debe promover solamente lo que uno ya se hace y no más. - las iniciativas p2p deben nacer, desenvolverse y controlarse desde dentro de una forma consensuada en lugar de ser impositivas y externas forzadas por medio de una autoridad (sea esta mayoritaria o minoritaria)
No creo que expresar esto sea destructivo, difamatorio o agresivo y no veo por qué se evita esos temas.
-- Saludos libres, Quiliro Ordóñez 600 8579
El 19/07/14 10:28, Jon Aguirre escribió:
Hola Quirilo:
Cuando quieras desarrollamos una estrategia de mediación para solucionar los conflictos.
Creo que puede ser bueno para evitar los ataques personales. No veo cómo evitar ser víctima de ellos. Yo no los he realizado contra persona alguna. Critico acciones y no personas.
Mientras tanto agradecería que ceses en tu bombardeo de mensajes. Hay otras vías y espacios para resolver los problemas que planteas, y una lista de correo no es el . medio adecuado.
No entiendo por qué dices que discutir sobre temas del P2P no es el tema de esta lista. -- Saludos libres, Quiliro Ordóñez 600 8579
Can commonification of cities and regions happen.... and then may it become the commonification of the State -which might meen simulateneoulsy dissolution of social power back into where it came from, the society? Here are some intriguining calls: Commons Josaphat http://commonsjosaphat.wordpress.com/ Let's win Barcelona: http://snuproject.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/guanyem-commons-barcelona/ Commune of Europe: http://www.thecommuneofeurope.org/ . What if .. we call all the cities of the world to commonify and then reunion as one undivided humanity, from bottom up pushing city governments, parties, nation states to turn into direct democratic p2p non-states.. The tricky point is how are you going to convince those who hold privileges over 'lower order', untrustworthy ordinary rank and file people. There are many of those elite actively benefiting from the existing power structures, and may be much less those who are wise and modest and who would pursue this goal by confronting the bad boys.. of course all of them as those of us outside are embedded in capitalist mode of production -the very base the existing power structure is relying dialectically. So multi scale deliberate counter creative and civil offensive to realize the transitions is needed in my opinion, so assertively and openly. So one person, or network of people, might be able to choose to engage, at one or more level. Declaring the end goal of stateless society to be realized from one by empowering the grassroots; setting check and balance protocols in their p2p communities themselves and ensuring that those protocols are working; then declaring that (Zapatista like) 'we don't want to hold any enclosed and un-socialised power, for people and make them do something we believe that it is good for them; yet we will try to work with those who are in the State in case they accept to collaborate with us in re-socializing the political power. So some kind of open p2p written charter, like a new wiki social civil contracts are needed indeed to justify any close engagement with non-p2p and anti-p2p structures. Since any currently power and wealth holding elite, his/her current 'being' is threatened (same as the feudal aristocracy felt threatened their 'being' by the bourgeoisie), by mass participation in social life, anyone need to realize the support of that kind of mass grassroots support. If we have a clear ruling class and power structures analyses at hand, context by context, next to our own open and p2p check and balance mechanisms for the networks, and wiki charters. then engaging enemy at various levels, getting support of those positive, critical and sincere elements active in those structures (like snowden) with varying, dynamic and harmonizable strategies. Such strategies should be very clearly and without compromise putting back all the commons; including labour, creative energy, and resources, back in grassroots' so that the self-empowerment of people is increasingly guaranteed. Just continuos brain storming.. Not beliefs, so very wide open to any critics Orsan
On 17 jul. 2014, at 18:44, willi uebelherr <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear friends,
on the P2P-blog the discussion obout our relation to the state is going on.
Ecuador as a state form, the proposal for a ‘Partner State’, and lessons for future Commons Transition Strategies http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/ecuador-as-a-state-form-the-proposal-for-a-par...
We can do this discussion in spanish or english. Also we can continue this discussion on the maillists. But like was Orsan Senalp wrote - we have to bring this two language spaces together.
many greetings, willi Bogota, Colombia
--- Quiliro wrote
Great to see Michel’s and Willi’s great perspectives.
I wonder what can be done in order to prevent the powerful from abusing the minorities or even the majorities in a stateless society as Michel states. Many times the majorities are manipulated in order to run over people that oppose the powerful, whether these powerful are part of the state or not. Other times, the powerful use violence and bureaucracy to exert their power over the majorities. What can we do in a stateless or stateful society against these abuses?
--- my answer
dear Quiliro and all,
your question, i think, is the most important question. What we have to do for independence in our development of our life environment?
Michel and Silke Helfrich think and say that we need the state as a partner state, as a cooperation partner. But we can see in Germany, what is going on. And we can see in Ecuador, what are the results of that.
I give here to links to very different writings about the same situation.
Dangerous practice of digital mass surveillance must be subject to independent checks and balances – Pillay http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/Media.aspx?IsMediaPage=true&LangID=...
Peer to Peer (P2P) Production as the Alternative to Capitalism – A New Communist Horizon http://www.networkedlabour.net/2013/05/peer-to-peer-p2p-production-as-the-al...
Navi Pillay and Jakob Rigi act on the same themes on her different backgrounds and her different perspektives. State or people self organization. But this is a pre-step in our thinking and doing.
This means, that the first is that we disolve our own slavery system in our thinking. If we create our own perspectives and our ways for that, then we can cooperate with all people without to lost our orientation for our future.
Of course, the result is that we are self-responsible for our life and never we can go to any institution to ask for our life basics. We have to do self. But never alone.
Here come in the Comunas. The local life community. We break the primitive dualism Individual or state. As single persons we live in communities. This are the constitutional elements for our bigger social societies.
State never exist. It is a virtual construction. So, why we should follow any stupid production of thoughts of stupid persons? I don-t understand, why Michel and Franz Nahrada and many other follow this religion.
many greetings, willi Bogota, Colombia
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
participants (11)
-
Antonio Huelva -
Bernardo Gutiérrez -
Daniel -
Jon Aguirre -
Jorge Machado -
Orsan -
Orsan Senalp
-
Quiliro Ordóñez Baca -
Santiago Hoerth Moura -
willi uebelherr -
xabier