Dear friends, on the P2P-blog the discussion obout our relation to the state is going on. Ecuador as a state form, the proposal for a ‘Partner State’, and lessons for future Commons Transition Strategies http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/ecuador-as-a-state-form-the-proposal-for-a-par... We can do this discussion in spanish or english. Also we can continue this discussion on the maillists. But like was Orsan Senalp wrote - we have to bring this two language spaces together. many greetings, willi Bogota, Colombia --- Quiliro wrote Great to see Michel’s and Willi’s great perspectives. I wonder what can be done in order to prevent the powerful from abusing the minorities or even the majorities in a stateless society as Michel states. Many times the majorities are manipulated in order to run over people that oppose the powerful, whether these powerful are part of the state or not. Other times, the powerful use violence and bureaucracy to exert their power over the majorities. What can we do in a stateless or stateful society against these abuses? --- my answer dear Quiliro and all, your question, i think, is the most important question. What we have to do for independence in our development of our life environment? Michel and Silke Helfrich think and say that we need the state as a partner state, as a cooperation partner. But we can see in Germany, what is going on. And we can see in Ecuador, what are the results of that. I give here to links to very different writings about the same situation. Dangerous practice of digital mass surveillance must be subject to independent checks and balances – Pillay http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/Media.aspx?IsMediaPage=true&LangID=... Peer to Peer (P2P) Production as the Alternative to Capitalism – A New Communist Horizon http://www.networkedlabour.net/2013/05/peer-to-peer-p2p-production-as-the-al... Navi Pillay and Jakob Rigi act on the same themes on her different backgrounds and her different perspektives. State or people self organization. But this is a pre-step in our thinking and doing. This means, that the first is that we disolve our own slavery system in our thinking. If we create our own perspectives and our ways for that, then we can cooperate with all people without to lost our orientation for our future. Of course, the result is that we are self-responsible for our life and never we can go to any institution to ask for our life basics. We have to do self. But never alone. Here come in the Comunas. The local life community. We break the primitive dualism Individual or state. As single persons we live in communities. This are the constitutional elements for our bigger social societies. State never exist. It is a virtual construction. So, why we should follow any stupid production of thoughts of stupid persons? I don-t understand, why Michel and Franz Nahrada and many other follow this religion. many greetings, willi Bogota, Colombia