hi sam, you haven't yet featured the internationally underreported michigan situation yet, this would be a good starting point, http://lansingonlinenews.com/news/video-virg-bernero-on-rachel-maddow-warnin... -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
I will do this. I have to get these blogging requests into my schedule, starting this Sat likely. I won't be able to move much on any of it until then. My good friend writes those articles for Lansing Online News, so for sure can reference that, and will think about how this maps to a p2p political advocacy perspective. I am trying to build a relationship with the guy at the end of that video (Lansing Mayor Virg Bernero) around the Michigan Transformation concepts http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto In my opinion, these are signs of a collapsing 20th century economy, with Michigan, Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Spain, and other places at the forefront of it. We could frankly use the help of people worldwide interested in p2p perspectives to think about how to move forward here in Michigan. I think there is a real opportunity, and I'll break out some of the research over the summer that we are doing with The Five Commons Report in Future Forward Institute to address things that are specific to this area, which hopefully will help people get a better idea. Also will think about an effective way to "map and model" the situation here. On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
hi sam,
you haven't yet featured the internationally underreported michigan situation yet,
this would be a good starting point, http://lansingonlinenews.com/news/video-virg-bernero-on-rachel-maddow-warnin...
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
thank you Sam, my own task, but I have not made tremendous progress, was to be to map out commons -oriented policy proposals that are emerging, the Pirate Party also has an interesting approach, based on 8 principles which when combined, given an indication of how a principled policy would look like, see the falkvinge blog for that On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
I will do this. I have to get these blogging requests into my schedule, starting this Sat likely. I won't be able to move much on any of it until then. My good friend writes those articles for Lansing Online News, so for sure can reference that, and will think about how this maps to a p2p political advocacy perspective. I am trying to build a relationship with the guy at the end of that video (Lansing Mayor Virg Bernero) around the Michigan Transformation concepts http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto
In my opinion, these are signs of a collapsing 20th century economy, with Michigan, Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Spain, and other places at the forefront of it. We could frankly use the help of people worldwide interested in p2p perspectives to think about how to move forward here in Michigan. I think there is a real opportunity, and I'll break out some of the research over the summer that we are doing with The Five Commons Report in Future Forward Institute to address things that are specific to this area, which hopefully will help people get a better idea. Also will think about an effective way to "map and model" the situation here.
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
hi sam,
you haven't yet featured the internationally underreported michigan situation yet,
this would be a good starting point,
http://lansingonlinenews.com/news/video-virg-bernero-on-rachel-maddow-warnin...
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net -
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
thank you Sam,
my own task, but I have not made tremendous progress, was to be to map out commons -oriented policy proposals that are emerging,
the Pirate Party also has an interesting approach, based on 8 principles which when combined, given an indication of how a principled policy would look like, see the falkvinge blog for that
Back in 2000 election, we had the Green Party emerge very strongly here in Michigan. Then, in my opinion, as often happens here in the US with efforts that start out as more egalitarian and progressive, the initiative of the Green Party was quickly overwhelmed by people who saw it as a platform to push their own quest for celebrity, or personal agendas, or quests for power and authority over others. The Green Party of Michigan then quickly fell apart around 2001. I think that the internet actually helped to fuel *both* the rapid growth *and* the rapid deterioration here. The "commons" of people's time and energy and goodwill, and trust, were quickly sapped, co-opted and wasted by people who wanted to put their agendas, and their insistence that people "do it my way" above the greater goals of most of the people involved. Internet email lists gave them an around the clock platform to pump out propaganda, dominate discussions, and even harass people. It is for this reason in part that I am compelled to seek a non-party route for progressives here in Michigan. Sure, we can work with existing parties. However, investing energies into putting the party and platform above people and their actual problems tends to consistently attract a really destructive element. So, I think a key here is trust first. Each participant has a way to work out trust with the others. if there is any party platform, let it be a *trust*-based platform. Technology really is not the full answer here, either. Neither is full answer community currency, nor open source hardware or software (although these are in my opinion components towards an effective shift in a positive direction that can help the majority of people struggling here). The problem is within the minds of people. We here in Michigan need to ***learn how to finally build real relationships of trust*** over and above anything else. Maybe technologies can help, but human learning trumps technology here. (this email will be re-worked to be part of the blog post). Trust, real empathy and compassion for other people, and a positive insight that there is a path towards resolving the existing problems is the most effective focus. So, I am really committed to the idea of rejecting creating a new political party in favor of creating a permanent effort for peer to peer political advocacy, learning, re-ignition of local connections of trust and ethical wealth creation, and this effort can collaborate and lend power to existing political parties that are aligned with our goals.
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
I will do this. I have to get these blogging requests into my schedule, starting this Sat likely. I won't be able to move much on any of it until then. My good friend writes those articles for Lansing Online News, so for sure can reference that, and will think about how this maps to a p2p political advocacy perspective. I am trying to build a relationship with the guy at the end of that video (Lansing Mayor Virg Bernero) around the Michigan Transformation concepts http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto
In my opinion, these are signs of a collapsing 20th century economy, with Michigan, Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Spain, and other places at the forefront of it. We could frankly use the help of people worldwide interested in p2p perspectives to think about how to move forward here in Michigan. I think there is a real opportunity, and I'll break out some of the research over the summer that we are doing with The Five Commons Report in Future Forward Institute to address things that are specific to this area, which hopefully will help people get a better idea. Also will think about an effective way to "map and model" the situation here.
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
hi sam,
you haven't yet featured the internationally underreported michigan situation yet,
this would be a good starting point,
http://lansingonlinenews.com/news/video-virg-bernero-on-rachel-maddow-warnin...
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
Dear Sam, issues of power seem part of every social movement, but perhaps they are heigthened in party-political structures, as you seem to suggest, I hope your own experiment will show a way forward that marries political efficicay and a way to avoid the issues you are highlighting, however, I don't think I agree that these dynamics are what caused the fall of the greens in michigan, since they appear in every political party, and many of them are successfull even with such dynamics, so my hunch is the problem was another one, Michel On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
thank you Sam,
my own task, but I have not made tremendous progress, was to be to map out commons -oriented policy proposals that are emerging,
the Pirate Party also has an interesting approach, based on 8 principles which when combined, given an indication of how a principled policy would look like, see the falkvinge blog for that
Back in 2000 election, we had the Green Party emerge very strongly here in Michigan. Then, in my opinion, as often happens here in the US with efforts that start out as more egalitarian and progressive, the initiative of the Green Party was quickly overwhelmed by people who saw it as a platform to push their own quest for celebrity, or personal agendas, or quests for power and authority over others. The Green Party of Michigan then quickly fell apart around 2001. I think that the internet actually helped to fuel *both* the rapid growth *and* the rapid deterioration here. The "commons" of people's time and energy and goodwill, and trust, were quickly sapped, co-opted and wasted by people who wanted to put their agendas, and their insistence that people "do it my way" above the greater goals of most of the people involved. Internet email lists gave them an around the clock platform to pump out propaganda, dominate discussions, and even harass people.
It is for this reason in part that I am compelled to seek a non-party route for progressives here in Michigan. Sure, we can work with existing parties. However, investing energies into putting the party and platform above people and their actual problems tends to consistently attract a really destructive element. So, I think a key here is trust first. Each participant has a way to work out trust with the others. if there is any party platform, let it be a *trust*-based platform. Technology really is not the full answer here, either. Neither is full answer community currency, nor open source hardware or software (although these are in my opinion components towards an effective shift in a positive direction that can help the majority of people struggling here). The problem is within the minds of people. We here in Michigan need to ***learn how to finally build real relationships of trust*** over and above anything else. Maybe technologies can help, but human learning trumps technology here. (this email will be re-worked to be part of the blog post). Trust, real empathy and compassion for other people, and a positive insight that there is a path towards resolving the existing problems is the most effective focus. So, I am really committed to the idea of rejecting creating a new political party in favor of creating a permanent effort for peer to peer political advocacy, learning, re-ignition of local connections of trust and ethical wealth creation, and this effort can collaborate and lend power to existing political parties that are aligned with our goals.
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
I will do this. I have to get these blogging requests into my schedule, starting this Sat likely. I won't be able to move much on any of it until then. My good friend writes those articles for Lansing Online News, so for sure can reference that, and will think about how this maps to a p2p political advocacy perspective. I am trying to build a relationship with the guy at the end of that video (Lansing Mayor Virg Bernero) around the Michigan Transformation concepts http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto
In my opinion, these are signs of a collapsing 20th century economy, with Michigan, Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Spain, and other places at the forefront of it. We could frankly use the help of people worldwide interested in p2p perspectives to think about how to move forward here in Michigan. I think there is a real opportunity, and I'll break out some of the research over the summer that we are doing with The Five Commons Report in Future Forward Institute to address things that are specific to this area, which hopefully will help people get a better idea. Also will think about an effective way to "map and model" the situation here.
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Michel Bauwens <
wrote:
hi sam,
you haven't yet featured the internationally underreported michigan situation yet,
this would be a good starting point,
http://lansingonlinenews.com/news/video-virg-bernero-on-rachel-maddow-warnin...
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Sam,
issues of power seem part of every social movement, but perhaps they are heigthened in party-political structures, as you seem to suggest,
I hope your own experiment will show a way forward that marries political efficicay and a way to avoid the issues you are highlighting,
however, I don't think I agree that these dynamics are what caused the fall of the greens in michigan, since they appear in every political party, and many of them are successfull even with such dynamics,
so my hunch is the problem was another one,
Michel
I think the dynamics, coupled with the lack of literacies of effective and trust based participation seemed to be the biggest problem. In other areas of the world and other cultures, the dynamics may emerge, but people are able to sort through them and move on. Here it seems with new political parties that there is a pathology that attracts a bad element, who co-opt and hijack. Many of the new party efforts seem to never recover from this. It may just be a part of our culture here.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
thank you Sam,
my own task, but I have not made tremendous progress, was to be to map out commons -oriented policy proposals that are emerging,
the Pirate Party also has an interesting approach, based on 8 principles which when combined, given an indication of how a principled policy would look like, see the falkvinge blog for that
Back in 2000 election, we had the Green Party emerge very strongly here in Michigan. Then, in my opinion, as often happens here in the US with efforts that start out as more egalitarian and progressive, the initiative of the Green Party was quickly overwhelmed by people who saw it as a platform to push their own quest for celebrity, or personal agendas, or quests for power and authority over others. The Green Party of Michigan then quickly fell apart around 2001. I think that the internet actually helped to fuel *both* the rapid growth *and* the rapid deterioration here. The "commons" of people's time and energy and goodwill, and trust, were quickly sapped, co-opted and wasted by people who wanted to put their agendas, and their insistence that people "do it my way" above the greater goals of most of the people involved. Internet email lists gave them an around the clock platform to pump out propaganda, dominate discussions, and even harass people.
It is for this reason in part that I am compelled to seek a non-party route for progressives here in Michigan. Sure, we can work with existing parties. However, investing energies into putting the party and platform above people and their actual problems tends to consistently attract a really destructive element. So, I think a key here is trust first. Each participant has a way to work out trust with the others. if there is any party platform, let it be a *trust*-based platform. Technology really is not the full answer here, either. Neither is full answer community currency, nor open source hardware or software (although these are in my opinion components towards an effective shift in a positive direction that can help the majority of people struggling here). The problem is within the minds of people. We here in Michigan need to ***learn how to finally build real relationships of trust*** over and above anything else. Maybe technologies can help, but human learning trumps technology here. (this email will be re-worked to be part of the blog post). Trust, real empathy and compassion for other people, and a positive insight that there is a path towards resolving the existing problems is the most effective focus. So, I am really committed to the idea of rejecting creating a new political party in favor of creating a permanent effort for peer to peer political advocacy, learning, re-ignition of local connections of trust and ethical wealth creation, and this effort can collaborate and lend power to existing political parties that are aligned with our goals.
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
I will do this. I have to get these blogging requests into my schedule, starting this Sat likely. I won't be able to move much on any of it until then. My good friend writes those articles for Lansing Online News, so for sure can reference that, and will think about how this maps to a p2p political advocacy perspective. I am trying to build a relationship with the guy at the end of that video (Lansing Mayor Virg Bernero) around the Michigan Transformation concepts http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto
In my opinion, these are signs of a collapsing 20th century economy, with Michigan, Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Spain, and other places at the forefront of it. We could frankly use the help of people worldwide interested in p2p perspectives to think about how to move forward here in Michigan. I think there is a real opportunity, and I'll break out some of the research over the summer that we are doing with The Five Commons Report in Future Forward Institute to address things that are specific to this area, which hopefully will help people get a better idea. Also will think about an effective way to "map and model" the situation here.
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
hi sam,
you haven't yet featured the internationally underreported michigan situation yet,
this would be a good starting point,
http://lansingonlinenews.com/news/video-virg-bernero-on-rachel-maddow-warnin...
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
certainly in the U.S. the whole system seems structurally 'stacked' against new political forces emerging outside of the 2 party system ... On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:37 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Sam,
issues of power seem part of every social movement, but perhaps they are heigthened in party-political structures, as you seem to suggest,
I hope your own experiment will show a way forward that marries political efficicay and a way to avoid the issues you are highlighting,
however, I don't think I agree that these dynamics are what caused the fall of the greens in michigan, since they appear in every political party, and many of them are successfull even with such dynamics,
so my hunch is the problem was another one,
Michel
I think the dynamics, coupled with the lack of literacies of effective and trust based participation seemed to be the biggest problem. In other areas of the world and other cultures, the dynamics may emerge, but people are able to sort through them and move on. Here it seems with new political parties that there is a pathology that attracts a bad element, who co-opt and hijack. Many of the new party efforts seem to never recover from this. It may just be a part of our culture here.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
thank you Sam,
my own task, but I have not made tremendous progress, was to be to map out commons -oriented policy proposals that are emerging,
the Pirate Party also has an interesting approach, based on 8 principles which when combined, given an indication of how a principled policy would look like, see the falkvinge blog for that
Back in 2000 election, we had the Green Party emerge very strongly here in Michigan. Then, in my opinion, as often happens here in the US with efforts that start out as more egalitarian and progressive, the initiative of the Green Party was quickly overwhelmed by people who saw it as a platform to push their own quest for celebrity, or personal agendas, or quests for power and authority over others. The Green Party of Michigan then quickly fell apart around 2001. I think that the internet actually helped to fuel *both* the rapid growth *and* the rapid deterioration here. The "commons" of people's time and energy and goodwill, and trust, were quickly sapped, co-opted and wasted by people who wanted to put their agendas, and their insistence that people "do it my way" above the greater goals of most of the people involved. Internet email lists gave them an around the clock platform to pump out propaganda, dominate discussions, and even harass people.
It is for this reason in part that I am compelled to seek a non-party route for progressives here in Michigan. Sure, we can work with existing parties. However, investing energies into putting the party and platform above people and their actual problems tends to consistently attract a really destructive element. So, I think a key here is trust first. Each participant has a way to work out trust with the others. if there is any party platform, let it be a *trust*-based platform. Technology really is not the full answer here, either. Neither is full answer community currency, nor open source hardware or software (although these are in my opinion components towards an effective shift in a positive direction that can help the majority of people struggling here). The problem is within the minds of people. We here in Michigan need to ***learn how to finally build real relationships of trust*** over and above anything else. Maybe technologies can help, but human learning trumps technology here. (this email will be re-worked to be part of the blog post). Trust, real empathy and compassion for other people, and a positive insight that there is a path towards resolving the existing problems is the most effective focus. So, I am really committed to the idea of rejecting creating a new political party in favor of creating a permanent effort for peer to peer political advocacy, learning, re-ignition of local connections of trust and ethical wealth creation, and this effort can collaborate and lend power to existing political parties that are aligned with our goals.
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
I will do this. I have to get these blogging requests into my schedule, starting this Sat likely. I won't be able to move much on any of it until then. My good friend writes those articles for
Lansing
Online News, so for sure can reference that, and will think about how this maps to a p2p political advocacy perspective. I am trying to build a relationship with the guy at the end of that video (Lansing Mayor Virg Bernero) around the Michigan Transformation concepts http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto
In my opinion, these are signs of a collapsing 20th century economy, with Michigan, Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Spain, and other places at the forefront of it. We could frankly use the help of people worldwide interested in p2p perspectives to think about how to move forward here in Michigan. I think there is a real opportunity, and I'll break out some of the research over the summer that we are doing with The Five Commons Report in Future Forward Institute to address things that are specific to this area, which hopefully will help people get a better idea. Also will think about an effective way to "map and model" the situation here.
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
hi sam,
you haven't yet featured the internationally underreported michigan situation yet,
this would be a good starting point,
http://lansingonlinenews.com/news/video-virg-bernero-on-rachel-maddow-warnin...
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
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-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
certainly in the U.S. the whole system seems structurally 'stacked' against new political forces emerging outside of the 2 party system ...
Yes, I think that both of the parties need to be confronted with organized groups of people who are speaking for themselves, that are no co-opted and under either group's control.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:37 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Sam,
issues of power seem part of every social movement, but perhaps they are heigthened in party-political structures, as you seem to suggest,
I hope your own experiment will show a way forward that marries political efficicay and a way to avoid the issues you are highlighting,
however, I don't think I agree that these dynamics are what caused the fall of the greens in michigan, since they appear in every political party, and many of them are successfull even with such dynamics,
so my hunch is the problem was another one,
Michel
I think the dynamics, coupled with the lack of literacies of effective and trust based participation seemed to be the biggest problem. In other areas of the world and other cultures, the dynamics may emerge, but people are able to sort through them and move on. Here it seems with new political parties that there is a pathology that attracts a bad element, who co-opt and hijack. Many of the new party efforts seem to never recover from this. It may just be a part of our culture here.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
thank you Sam,
my own task, but I have not made tremendous progress, was to be to map out commons -oriented policy proposals that are emerging,
the Pirate Party also has an interesting approach, based on 8 principles which when combined, given an indication of how a principled policy would look like, see the falkvinge blog for that
Back in 2000 election, we had the Green Party emerge very strongly here in Michigan. Then, in my opinion, as often happens here in the US with efforts that start out as more egalitarian and progressive, the initiative of the Green Party was quickly overwhelmed by people who saw it as a platform to push their own quest for celebrity, or personal agendas, or quests for power and authority over others. The Green Party of Michigan then quickly fell apart around 2001. I think that the internet actually helped to fuel *both* the rapid growth *and* the rapid deterioration here. The "commons" of people's time and energy and goodwill, and trust, were quickly sapped, co-opted and wasted by people who wanted to put their agendas, and their insistence that people "do it my way" above the greater goals of most of the people involved. Internet email lists gave them an around the clock platform to pump out propaganda, dominate discussions, and even harass people.
It is for this reason in part that I am compelled to seek a non-party route for progressives here in Michigan. Sure, we can work with existing parties. However, investing energies into putting the party and platform above people and their actual problems tends to consistently attract a really destructive element. So, I think a key here is trust first. Each participant has a way to work out trust with the others. if there is any party platform, let it be a *trust*-based platform. Technology really is not the full answer here, either. Neither is full answer community currency, nor open source hardware or software (although these are in my opinion components towards an effective shift in a positive direction that can help the majority of people struggling here). The problem is within the minds of people. We here in Michigan need to ***learn how to finally build real relationships of trust*** over and above anything else. Maybe technologies can help, but human learning trumps technology here. (this email will be re-worked to be part of the blog post). Trust, real empathy and compassion for other people, and a positive insight that there is a path towards resolving the existing problems is the most effective focus. So, I am really committed to the idea of rejecting creating a new political party in favor of creating a permanent effort for peer to peer political advocacy, learning, re-ignition of local connections of trust and ethical wealth creation, and this effort can collaborate and lend power to existing political parties that are aligned with our goals.
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
I will do this. I have to get these blogging requests into my schedule, starting this Sat likely. I won't be able to move much on any of it until then. My good friend writes those articles for Lansing Online News, so for sure can reference that, and will think about how this maps to a p2p political advocacy perspective. I am trying to build a relationship with the guy at the end of that video (Lansing Mayor Virg Bernero) around the Michigan Transformation concepts http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto
In my opinion, these are signs of a collapsing 20th century economy, with Michigan, Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Spain, and other places at the forefront of it. We could frankly use the help of people worldwide interested in p2p perspectives to think about how to move forward here in Michigan. I think there is a real opportunity, and I'll break out some of the research over the summer that we are doing with The Five Commons Report in Future Forward Institute to address things that are specific to this area, which hopefully will help people get a better idea. Also will think about an effective way to "map and model" the situation here.
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote: > hi sam, > > you haven't yet featured the internationally underreported > michigan > situation yet, > > this would be a good starting point, > > > > http://lansingonlinenews.com/news/video-virg-bernero-on-rachel-maddow-warnin... > > -- > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > > >
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
my hunch is that such a movement also needs a cohesive leadership group where there is already a priori trust, and that perhaps they launched 'too fast' before there was any such coherence, michel On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:44 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
certainly in the U.S. the whole system seems structurally 'stacked' against new political forces emerging outside of the 2 party system ...
Yes, I think that both of the parties need to be confronted with organized groups of people who are speaking for themselves, that are no co-opted and under either group's control.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:37 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Michel Bauwens <
wrote:
Dear Sam,
issues of power seem part of every social movement, but perhaps they are heigthened in party-political structures, as you seem to suggest,
I hope your own experiment will show a way forward that marries political efficicay and a way to avoid the issues you are highlighting,
however, I don't think I agree that these dynamics are what caused the fall of the greens in michigan, since they appear in every political party, and many of them are successfull even with such dynamics,
so my hunch is the problem was another one,
Michel
I think the dynamics, coupled with the lack of literacies of effective and trust based participation seemed to be the biggest problem. In other areas of the world and other cultures, the dynamics may emerge, but people are able to sort through them and move on. Here it seems with new political parties that there is a pathology that attracts a bad element, who co-opt and hijack. Many of the new party efforts seem to never recover from this. It may just be a part of our culture here.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
thank you Sam,
my own task, but I have not made tremendous progress, was to be to map out commons -oriented policy proposals that are emerging,
the Pirate Party also has an interesting approach, based on 8 principles which when combined, given an indication of how a principled policy would look like, see the falkvinge blog for that
Back in 2000 election, we had the Green Party emerge very strongly here in Michigan. Then, in my opinion, as often happens here in the
US
with efforts that start out as more egalitarian and progressive, the initiative of the Green Party was quickly overwhelmed by people who saw it as a platform to push their own quest for celebrity, or personal agendas, or quests for power and authority over others. The Green Party of Michigan then quickly fell apart around 2001. I think that the internet actually helped to fuel *both* the rapid growth *and* the rapid deterioration here. The "commons" of people's time and energy and goodwill, and trust, were quickly sapped, co-opted and wasted by people who wanted to put their agendas, and their insistence that people "do it my way" above the greater goals of most of the people involved. Internet email lists gave them an around the clock platform to pump out propaganda, dominate discussions, and even harass people.
It is for this reason in part that I am compelled to seek a non-party route for progressives here in Michigan. Sure, we can work with existing parties. However, investing energies into putting the party and platform above people and their actual problems tends to consistently attract a really destructive element. So, I think a key here is trust first. Each participant has a way to work out trust with the others. if there is any party platform, let it be a *trust*-based platform. Technology really is not the full answer here, either. Neither is full answer community currency, nor open source hardware or software (although these are in my opinion components towards an effective shift in a positive direction that can help the majority of people struggling here). The problem is within the minds of people. We here in Michigan need to ***learn how to finally build real relationships of trust*** over and above anything else. Maybe technologies can help, but human learning trumps technology here. (this email will be re-worked to be part of the blog post). Trust, real empathy and compassion for other people, and a positive insight that there is a path towards resolving the existing problems is the most effective focus. So, I am really committed to the idea of rejecting creating a new political party in favor of creating a permanent effort for peer to peer political advocacy, learning, re-ignition of local connections of trust and ethical wealth creation, and this effort can collaborate and lend power to existing political parties that are aligned with our goals.
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Samuel Rose < [email protected]> wrote: > > I will do this. I have to get these blogging requests into my > schedule, starting this Sat likely. I won't be able to move much on > any of it until then. My good friend writes those articles for > Lansing > Online News, so for sure can reference that, and will think about > how > this maps to a p2p political advocacy perspective. I am trying to > build a relationship with the guy at the end of that video (Lansing > Mayor Virg Bernero) around the Michigan Transformation concepts > http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto > > In my opinion, these are signs of a collapsing 20th century economy, > with Michigan, Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Spain, and other places at > the forefront of it. We could frankly use the help of people > worldwide > interested in p2p perspectives to think about how to move forward > here > in Michigan. I think there is a real opportunity, and I'll break out > some of the research over the summer that we are doing with The Five > Commons Report in Future Forward Institute to address things that > are > specific to this area, which hopefully will help people get a better > idea. Also will think about an effective way to "map and model" the > situation here. > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Michel Bauwens > <[email protected]> > wrote: > > hi sam, > > > > you haven't yet featured the internationally underreported > > michigan > > situation yet, > > > > this would be a good starting point, > > > > > > > > http://lansingonlinenews.com/news/video-virg-bernero-on-rachel-maddow-warnin... > > > > -- > > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > > > > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; > > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > -- > Sam Rose > Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 > skype: samuelrose > email: [email protected] > http://futureforwardinstitute.com > http://forwardfound.org > http://hollymeadcapital.com > http://p2pfoundation.net > http://socialmediaclassroom.com > > "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human > ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens;
http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
my hunch is that such a movement also needs a cohesive leadership group where there is already a priori trust, and that perhaps they launched 'too fast' before there was any such coherence,
michel
I also think there is something to be said for the reality that a "party" is really a bottleneck, and a target for co-optation. Given people's lack of general political access here in Michigan, we're asking them to take a real gamble by throwing their lot in with a "party" that may have leadership with a different agenda than theirs. Parties are also a really convenient way to categorize, pidgeon hole, and "steer" people. You can invest huge amounts of time building a political party, and then watch some really undesirable people take it over. It's going to be extremely hard to convince me to put my own energy into a party after the experiences I've already been through participating in them in the past. Instead, I am really focused on providing plausible alternatives to food, energy, education, technology and culture systems in our cities and communities, where people can co-govern the resources, an collaborate with others in the region who are doing the same.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:44 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
certainly in the U.S. the whole system seems structurally 'stacked' against new political forces emerging outside of the 2 party system ...
Yes, I think that both of the parties need to be confronted with organized groups of people who are speaking for themselves, that are no co-opted and under either group's control.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:37 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Sam,
issues of power seem part of every social movement, but perhaps they are heigthened in party-political structures, as you seem to suggest,
I hope your own experiment will show a way forward that marries political efficicay and a way to avoid the issues you are highlighting,
however, I don't think I agree that these dynamics are what caused the fall of the greens in michigan, since they appear in every political party, and many of them are successfull even with such dynamics,
so my hunch is the problem was another one,
Michel
I think the dynamics, coupled with the lack of literacies of effective and trust based participation seemed to be the biggest problem. In other areas of the world and other cultures, the dynamics may emerge, but people are able to sort through them and move on. Here it seems with new political parties that there is a pathology that attracts a bad element, who co-opt and hijack. Many of the new party efforts seem to never recover from this. It may just be a part of our culture here.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote: > thank you Sam, > > my own task, but I have not made tremendous progress, was to be to > map > out > commons -oriented policy proposals that are emerging, > > the Pirate Party also has an interesting approach, based on 8 > principles > which when combined, given an indication of how a principled > policy > would > look like, see the falkvinge blog for that >
Back in 2000 election, we had the Green Party emerge very strongly here in Michigan. Then, in my opinion, as often happens here in the US with efforts that start out as more egalitarian and progressive, the initiative of the Green Party was quickly overwhelmed by people who saw it as a platform to push their own quest for celebrity, or personal agendas, or quests for power and authority over others. The Green Party of Michigan then quickly fell apart around 2001. I think that the internet actually helped to fuel *both* the rapid growth *and* the rapid deterioration here. The "commons" of people's time and energy and goodwill, and trust, were quickly sapped, co-opted and wasted by people who wanted to put their agendas, and their insistence that people "do it my way" above the greater goals of most of the people involved. Internet email lists gave them an around the clock platform to pump out propaganda, dominate discussions, and even harass people.
It is for this reason in part that I am compelled to seek a non-party route for progressives here in Michigan. Sure, we can work with existing parties. However, investing energies into putting the party and platform above people and their actual problems tends to consistently attract a really destructive element. So, I think a key here is trust first. Each participant has a way to work out trust with the others. if there is any party platform, let it be a *trust*-based platform. Technology really is not the full answer here, either. Neither is full answer community currency, nor open source hardware or software (although these are in my opinion components towards an effective shift in a positive direction that can help the majority of people struggling here). The problem is within the minds of people. We here in Michigan need to ***learn how to finally build real relationships of trust*** over and above anything else. Maybe technologies can help, but human learning trumps technology here. (this email will be re-worked to be part of the blog post). Trust, real empathy and compassion for other people, and a positive insight that there is a path towards resolving the existing problems is the most effective focus. So, I am really committed to the idea of rejecting creating a new political party in favor of creating a permanent effort for peer to peer political advocacy, learning, re-ignition of local connections of trust and ethical wealth creation, and this effort can collaborate and lend power to existing political parties that are aligned with our goals.
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Samuel Rose > <[email protected]> > wrote: >> >> I will do this. I have to get these blogging requests into my >> schedule, starting this Sat likely. I won't be able to move much >> on >> any of it until then. My good friend writes those articles for >> Lansing >> Online News, so for sure can reference that, and will think about >> how >> this maps to a p2p political advocacy perspective. I am trying to >> build a relationship with the guy at the end of that video >> (Lansing >> Mayor Virg Bernero) around the Michigan Transformation concepts >> http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto >> >> In my opinion, these are signs of a collapsing 20th century >> economy, >> with Michigan, Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Spain, and other places >> at >> the forefront of it. We could frankly use the help of people >> worldwide >> interested in p2p perspectives to think about how to move forward >> here >> in Michigan. I think there is a real opportunity, and I'll break >> out >> some of the research over the summer that we are doing with The >> Five >> Commons Report in Future Forward Institute to address things that >> are >> specific to this area, which hopefully will help people get a >> better >> idea. Also will think about an effective way to "map and model" >> the >> situation here. >> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Michel Bauwens >> <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > hi sam, >> > >> > you haven't yet featured the internationally underreported >> > michigan >> > situation yet, >> > >> > this would be a good starting point, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > http://lansingonlinenews.com/news/video-virg-bernero-on-rachel-maddow-warnin... >> > >> > -- >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> > >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: >> > >> > >> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> > >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; >> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Sam Rose >> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 >> skype: samuelrose >> email: [email protected] >> http://futureforwardinstitute.com >> http://forwardfound.org >> http://hollymeadcapital.com >> http://p2pfoundation.net >> http://socialmediaclassroom.com >> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human >> ambition." - Carl Sagan > > > > -- > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > > >
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
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-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
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-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
Dear Sam, I'm personally not suggesting that p2p people should create a political party, BUT, I do think that we should have bridges to the institutional world, and that includes a network of sympathetic politicians, in Europe, for example around EU legislation, there is now a network of digital rights organisations (opennet coalition) that can quickly not only mobilize sympathizers, but also a network of national and european MEP's that can be counted on to support p2p rights legislation ... generally speaking, from experience, the Pirate Party (ies), the Greens and sections of the left parties are generally sympathetic, while parties of the right side with copyright maximalism ...; same for commons-related topics I would suggest that this also needs to happen in the U.S., and I'm hypothising that organisations like EFF are doing this? so it's not about creating a p2p political party, but of meshworking political and non-political people around shared concerns wherever they can be active On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:54 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
my hunch is that such a movement also needs a cohesive leadership group where there is already a priori trust, and that perhaps they launched 'too fast' before there was any such coherence,
michel
I also think there is something to be said for the reality that a "party" is really a bottleneck, and a target for co-optation. Given people's lack of general political access here in Michigan, we're asking them to take a real gamble by throwing their lot in with a "party" that may have leadership with a different agenda than theirs. Parties are also a really convenient way to categorize, pidgeon hole, and "steer" people. You can invest huge amounts of time building a political party, and then watch some really undesirable people take it over. It's going to be extremely hard to convince me to put my own energy into a party after the experiences I've already been through participating in them in the past. Instead, I am really focused on providing plausible alternatives to food, energy, education, technology and culture systems in our cities and communities, where people can co-govern the resources, an collaborate with others in the region who are doing the same.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:44 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Michel Bauwens <
wrote:
certainly in the U.S. the whole system seems structurally 'stacked' against new political forces emerging outside of the 2 party system ...
Yes, I think that both of the parties need to be confronted with organized groups of people who are speaking for themselves, that are no co-opted and under either group's control.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:37 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Sam,
issues of power seem part of every social movement, but perhaps
they
are heigthened in party-political structures, as you seem to suggest,
I hope your own experiment will show a way forward that marries political efficicay and a way to avoid the issues you are highlighting,
however, I don't think I agree that these dynamics are what caused the fall of the greens in michigan, since they appear in every political party, and many of them are successfull even with such dynamics,
so my hunch is the problem was another one,
Michel
I think the dynamics, coupled with the lack of literacies of effective and trust based participation seemed to be the biggest problem. In other areas of the world and other cultures, the dynamics may emerge, but people are able to sort through them and move on. Here it seems with new political parties that there is a pathology that attracts a bad element, who co-opt and hijack. Many of the new party efforts seem to never recover from this. It may just be a part of our culture here.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Samuel Rose < [email protected]> wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Michel Bauwens > <[email protected]> wrote: > > thank you Sam, > > > > my own task, but I have not made tremendous progress, was to be to > > map > > out > > commons -oriented policy proposals that are emerging, > > > > the Pirate Party also has an interesting approach, based on 8 > > principles > > which when combined, given an indication of how a principled > > policy > > would > > look like, see the falkvinge blog for that > > > > Back in 2000 election, we had the Green Party emerge very strongly > here in Michigan. Then, in my opinion, as often happens here in the > US > with efforts that start out as more egalitarian and progressive, the > initiative of the Green Party was quickly overwhelmed by people who > saw it as a platform to push their own quest for celebrity, or > personal agendas, or quests for power and authority over others. The > Green Party of Michigan then quickly fell apart around 2001. I think > that the internet actually helped to fuel *both* the rapid growth > *and* the rapid deterioration here. The "commons" of people's time > and > energy and goodwill, and trust, were quickly sapped, co-opted and > wasted by people who wanted to put their agendas, and their > insistence > that people "do it my way" above the greater goals of most of the > people involved. Internet email lists gave them an around the clock > platform to pump out propaganda, dominate discussions, and even > harass > people. > > It is for this reason in part that I am compelled to seek a > non-party > route for progressives here in Michigan. Sure, we can work with > existing parties. However, investing energies into putting the party > and platform above people and their actual problems tends to > consistently attract a really destructive element. So, I think a key > here is trust first. Each participant has a way to work out trust > with > the others. if there is any party platform, let it be a > *trust*-based > platform. Technology really is not the full answer here, either. > Neither is full answer community currency, nor open source hardware > or > software (although these are in my opinion components towards an > effective shift in a positive direction that can help the majority > of > people struggling here). The problem is within the minds of people. > We > here in Michigan need to ***learn how to finally build real > relationships of trust*** over and above anything else. Maybe > technologies can help, but human learning trumps technology here. > (this email will be re-worked to be part of the blog post). Trust, > real empathy and compassion for other people, and a positive insight > that there is a path towards resolving the existing problems is the > most effective focus. So, I am really committed to the idea of > rejecting creating a new political party in favor of creating a > permanent effort for peer to peer political advocacy, learning, > re-ignition of local connections of trust and ethical wealth > creation, > and this effort can collaborate and lend power to existing political > parties that are aligned with our goals. > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Samuel Rose > > <[email protected]> > > wrote: > >> > >> I will do this. I have to get these blogging requests into my > >> schedule, starting this Sat likely. I won't be able to move much > >> on > >> any of it until then. My good friend writes those articles for > >> Lansing > >> Online News, so for sure can reference that, and will think about > >> how > >> this maps to a p2p political advocacy perspective. I am trying to > >> build a relationship with the guy at the end of that video > >> (Lansing > >> Mayor Virg Bernero) around the Michigan Transformation concepts > >> http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto > >> > >> In my opinion, these are signs of a collapsing 20th century > >> economy, > >> with Michigan, Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Spain, and other places > >> at > >> the forefront of it. We could frankly use the help of people > >> worldwide > >> interested in p2p perspectives to think about how to move forward > >> here > >> in Michigan. I think there is a real opportunity, and I'll break > >> out > >> some of the research over the summer that we are doing with The > >> Five > >> Commons Report in Future Forward Institute to address things that > >> are > >> specific to this area, which hopefully will help people get a > >> better > >> idea. Also will think about an effective way to "map and model" > >> the > >> situation here. > >> > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Michel Bauwens > >> <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > hi sam, > >> > > >> > you haven't yet featured the internationally underreported > >> > michigan > >> > situation yet, > >> > > >> > this would be a good starting point, > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > http://lansingonlinenews.com/news/video-virg-bernero-on-rachel-maddow-warnin... > >> > > >> > -- > >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > >> > > >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > >> > > >> > > >> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > >> > > >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; > >> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> -- > >> Sam Rose > >> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation > >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 > >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 > >> skype: samuelrose > >> email: [email protected] > >> http://futureforwardinstitute.com > >> http://forwardfound.org > >> http://hollymeadcapital.com > >> http://p2pfoundation.net > >> http://socialmediaclassroom.com > >> > >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human > >> ambition." - Carl Sagan > > > > > > > > -- > > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > > > > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; > > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > -- > Sam Rose > Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 > skype: samuelrose > email: [email protected] > http://futureforwardinstitute.com > http://forwardfound.org > http://hollymeadcapital.com > http://p2pfoundation.net > http://socialmediaclassroom.com > > "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human > ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
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-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
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-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Sam,
I'm personally not suggesting that p2p people should create a political party, BUT, I do think that we should have bridges to the institutional world, and that includes a network of sympathetic politicians,
so it's not about creating a p2p political party, but of meshworking political and non-political people around shared concerns wherever they can be active
I think what you suggest is the optimal form of political participation. The first emphasis should be on building counterinstitutions at the local level and taking advantage of the potential offered by liberatory technologies to create spaces outside of state/corporate control, as Sam writes here: Instead, I am really focused on
providing plausible alternatives to food, energy, education, technology and culture systems in our cities and communities, where people can co-govern the resources, an collaborate with others in the region who are doing the same.
To the extent that we're involved in politics, it should be by developing informal friendly ties and networking with particular individuals inside the party establishments, or by participating in ad hoc issue-oriented pressure campaigns in coalition with groups like EFF. -- Kevin Carson Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org Mutualist Blog: Free Market Anti-Capitalism http://mutualist.blogspot.com The Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Organization Theory: A Libertarian Perspective http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
hi Kevin, I completely agree with your approach, which seems congruent with mine, Michel On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:17 AM, Kevin Carson < [email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Sam,
I'm personally not suggesting that p2p people should create a political party, BUT, I do think that we should have bridges to the institutional world, and that includes a network of sympathetic politicians,
so it's not about creating a p2p political party, but of meshworking political and non-political people around shared concerns wherever they can be active
I think what you suggest is the optimal form of political participation. The first emphasis should be on building counterinstitutions at the local level and taking advantage of the potential offered by liberatory technologies to create spaces outside of state/corporate control, as Sam writes here:
Instead, I am really focused on
providing plausible alternatives to food, energy, education, technology and culture systems in our cities and communities, where people can co-govern the resources, an collaborate with others in the region who are doing the same.
To the extent that we're involved in politics, it should be by developing informal friendly ties and networking with particular individuals inside the party establishments, or by participating in ad hoc issue-oriented pressure campaigns in coalition with groups like EFF.
-- Kevin Carson Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org Mutualist Blog: Free Market Anti-Capitalism http://mutualist.blogspot.com The Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Organization Theory: A Libertarian Perspective http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
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On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 6:32 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
hi Kevin,
I completely agree with your approach, which seems congruent with mine,
Michel
Yes, on board with this too. In fact, I am also interested in working with unions, and even local branches of parties like the Democrats where there is support for commons/p2p approaches.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:17 AM, Kevin Carson <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Sam,
I'm personally not suggesting that p2p people should create a political party, BUT, I do think that we should have bridges to the institutional world, and that includes a network of sympathetic politicians,
so it's not about creating a p2p political party, but of meshworking political and non-political people around shared concerns wherever they can be active
I think what you suggest is the optimal form of political participation. The first emphasis should be on building counterinstitutions at the local level and taking advantage of the potential offered by liberatory technologies to create spaces outside of state/corporate control, as Sam writes here:
Instead, I am really focused on
providing plausible alternatives to food, energy, education, technology and culture systems in our cities and communities, where people can co-govern the resources, an collaborate with others in the region who are doing the same.
To the extent that we're involved in politics, it should be by developing informal friendly ties and networking with particular individuals inside the party establishments, or by participating in ad hoc issue-oriented pressure campaigns in coalition with groups like EFF.
-- Kevin Carson Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org Mutualist Blog: Free Market Anti-Capitalism http://mutualist.blogspot.com The Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Organization Theory: A Libertarian Perspective http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
I think then the first thing would be to identify individuals on a local level, and proceed from there do you know the digital justice coalition in detroit? On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 9:51 PM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 6:32 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
hi Kevin,
I completely agree with your approach, which seems congruent with mine,
Michel
Yes, on board with this too. In fact, I am also interested in working with unions, and even local branches of parties like the Democrats where there is support for commons/p2p approaches.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:17 AM, Kevin Carson <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Michel Bauwens <
wrote:
Dear Sam,
I'm personally not suggesting that p2p people should create a political party, BUT, I do think that we should have bridges to the institutional world, and that includes a network of sympathetic politicians,
so it's not about creating a p2p political party, but of meshworking political and non-political people around shared concerns wherever they can be active
I think what you suggest is the optimal form of political participation. The first emphasis should be on building counterinstitutions at the local level and taking advantage of the potential offered by liberatory technologies to create spaces outside of state/corporate control, as Sam writes here:
Instead, I am really focused on
providing plausible alternatives to food, energy, education, technology and culture systems in our cities and communities, where people can co-govern the resources, an collaborate with others in the region who are doing the same.
To the extent that we're involved in politics, it should be by developing informal friendly ties and networking with particular individuals inside the party establishments, or by participating in ad hoc issue-oriented pressure campaigns in coalition with groups like EFF.
-- Kevin Carson Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org Mutualist Blog: Free Market Anti-Capitalism http://mutualist.blogspot.com The Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Organization Theory: A Libertarian Perspective
http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
I think then the first thing would be to identify individuals on a local level, and proceed from there
do you know the digital justice coalition in detroit?
Yes, this is good advice for sure. Getting the people who have been active in Michigan around these issues to coordinate and collaborate is definitely worthwhile. They are largely fractured. No offense is meant by this, but digital justice is only one aspect of the political advocacy that we're pursuing here. Especially now that the state government is actually taking over whole towns, bringing corporate cronies, etc. There are coalitions building now where "digital justice" folks could easily have a place at the table though. We already have a lot of progress in doing the same coalition building around Food systems here in Michigan and in the region.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 9:51 PM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 6:32 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
hi Kevin,
I completely agree with your approach, which seems congruent with mine,
Michel
Yes, on board with this too. In fact, I am also interested in working with unions, and even local branches of parties like the Democrats where there is support for commons/p2p approaches.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:17 AM, Kevin Carson <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Sam,
I'm personally not suggesting that p2p people should create a political party, BUT, I do think that we should have bridges to the institutional world, and that includes a network of sympathetic politicians,
so it's not about creating a p2p political party, but of meshworking political and non-political people around shared concerns wherever they can be active
I think what you suggest is the optimal form of political participation. The first emphasis should be on building counterinstitutions at the local level and taking advantage of the potential offered by liberatory technologies to create spaces outside of state/corporate control, as Sam writes here:
Instead, I am really focused on
providing plausible alternatives to food, energy, education, technology and culture systems in our cities and communities, where people can co-govern the resources, an collaborate with others in the region who are doing the same.
To the extent that we're involved in politics, it should be by developing informal friendly ties and networking with particular individuals inside the party establishments, or by participating in ad hoc issue-oriented pressure campaigns in coalition with groups like EFF.
-- Kevin Carson Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org Mutualist Blog: Free Market Anti-Capitalism http://mutualist.blogspot.com The Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Organization Theory: A Libertarian Perspective
http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
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Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
thanks Sam, for all the good work you are attempting there On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 10:22 PM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
I think then the first thing would be to identify individuals on a local level, and proceed from there
do you know the digital justice coalition in detroit?
Yes, this is good advice for sure. Getting the people who have been active in Michigan around these issues to coordinate and collaborate is definitely worthwhile. They are largely fractured.
No offense is meant by this, but digital justice is only one aspect of the political advocacy that we're pursuing here. Especially now that the state government is actually taking over whole towns, bringing corporate cronies, etc. There are coalitions building now where "digital justice" folks could easily have a place at the table though.
We already have a lot of progress in doing the same coalition building around Food systems here in Michigan and in the region.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 9:51 PM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 6:32 AM, Michel Bauwens <
wrote:
hi Kevin,
I completely agree with your approach, which seems congruent with mine,
Michel
Yes, on board with this too. In fact, I am also interested in working with unions, and even local branches of parties like the Democrats where there is support for commons/p2p approaches.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:17 AM, Kevin Carson <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Sam,
I'm personally not suggesting that p2p people should create a political party, BUT, I do think that we should have bridges to the institutional world, and that includes a network of sympathetic politicians,
so it's not about creating a p2p political party, but of
meshworking
political and non-political people around shared concerns wherever they can be active
I think what you suggest is the optimal form of political participation. The first emphasis should be on building counterinstitutions at the local level and taking advantage of the potential offered by liberatory technologies to create spaces outside of state/corporate control, as Sam writes here:
Instead, I am really focused on
> providing plausible alternatives to food, energy, education, > technology and culture systems in our cities and communities, where > people can co-govern the resources, an collaborate with others in > the > region who are doing the same.
To the extent that we're involved in politics, it should be by developing informal friendly ties and networking with particular individuals inside the party establishments, or by participating in ad hoc issue-oriented pressure campaigns in coalition with groups like EFF.
-- Kevin Carson Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org Mutualist Blog: Free Market Anti-Capitalism http://mutualist.blogspot.com The Homebrew Industrial Revolution: A Low-Overhead Manifesto http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com Organization Theory: A Libertarian Perspective
http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/12/studies-in-anarchist-theory-of.html
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-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Sam,
I'm personally not suggesting that p2p people should create a political party, BUT, I do think that we should have bridges to the institutional world, and that includes a network of sympathetic politicians,
Yeah, I have been saying all along that I would love to collaborate with existing parties that support p2p/commons principles.
in Europe, for example around EU legislation, there is now a network of digital rights organisations (opennet coalition) that can quickly not only mobilize sympathizers, but also a network of national and european MEP's that can be counted on to support p2p rights legislation ... generally speaking, from experience, the Pirate Party (ies), the Greens and sections of the left parties are generally sympathetic, while parties of the right side with copyright maximalism ...; same for commons-related topics
I would suggest that this also needs to happen in the U.S., and I'm hypothising that organisations like EFF are doing this?
Yes indeed. EFF, Creative Commons, the green party where it is active and was not corrupted. Yes, I agree.
so it's not about creating a p2p political party, but of meshworking political and non-political people around shared concerns wherever they can be active
Yes indeed. Tried to describe that here too http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto#Government
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:54 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
my hunch is that such a movement also needs a cohesive leadership group where there is already a priori trust, and that perhaps they launched 'too fast' before there was any such coherence,
michel
I also think there is something to be said for the reality that a "party" is really a bottleneck, and a target for co-optation. Given people's lack of general political access here in Michigan, we're asking them to take a real gamble by throwing their lot in with a "party" that may have leadership with a different agenda than theirs. Parties are also a really convenient way to categorize, pidgeon hole, and "steer" people. You can invest huge amounts of time building a political party, and then watch some really undesirable people take it over. It's going to be extremely hard to convince me to put my own energy into a party after the experiences I've already been through participating in them in the past. Instead, I am really focused on providing plausible alternatives to food, energy, education, technology and culture systems in our cities and communities, where people can co-govern the resources, an collaborate with others in the region who are doing the same.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:44 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote:
certainly in the U.S. the whole system seems structurally 'stacked' against new political forces emerging outside of the 2 party system ...
Yes, I think that both of the parties need to be confronted with organized groups of people who are speaking for themselves, that are no co-opted and under either group's control.
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:37 AM, Samuel Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:32 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Sam, > > issues of power seem part of every social movement, but perhaps > they > are > heigthened in party-political structures, as you seem to suggest, > > I hope your own experiment will show a way forward that marries > political > efficicay and a way to avoid the issues you are highlighting, > > however, I don't think I agree that these dynamics are what caused > the > fall > of the greens in michigan, since they appear in every political > party, > and > many of them are successfull even with such dynamics, > > so my hunch is the problem was another one, > > Michel >
I think the dynamics, coupled with the lack of literacies of effective and trust based participation seemed to be the biggest problem. In other areas of the world and other cultures, the dynamics may emerge, but people are able to sort through them and move on. Here it seems with new political parties that there is a pathology that attracts a bad element, who co-opt and hijack. Many of the new party efforts seem to never recover from this. It may just be a part of our culture here.
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:24 AM, Samuel Rose > <[email protected]> > wrote: >> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Michel Bauwens >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> > thank you Sam, >> > >> > my own task, but I have not made tremendous progress, was to be >> > to >> > map >> > out >> > commons -oriented policy proposals that are emerging, >> > >> > the Pirate Party also has an interesting approach, based on 8 >> > principles >> > which when combined, given an indication of how a principled >> > policy >> > would >> > look like, see the falkvinge blog for that >> > >> >> Back in 2000 election, we had the Green Party emerge very >> strongly >> here in Michigan. Then, in my opinion, as often happens here in >> the >> US >> with efforts that start out as more egalitarian and progressive, >> the >> initiative of the Green Party was quickly overwhelmed by people >> who >> saw it as a platform to push their own quest for celebrity, or >> personal agendas, or quests for power and authority over others. >> The >> Green Party of Michigan then quickly fell apart around 2001. I >> think >> that the internet actually helped to fuel *both* the rapid growth >> *and* the rapid deterioration here. The "commons" of people's >> time >> and >> energy and goodwill, and trust, were quickly sapped, co-opted and >> wasted by people who wanted to put their agendas, and their >> insistence >> that people "do it my way" above the greater goals of most of the >> people involved. Internet email lists gave them an around the >> clock >> platform to pump out propaganda, dominate discussions, and even >> harass >> people. >> >> It is for this reason in part that I am compelled to seek a >> non-party >> route for progressives here in Michigan. Sure, we can work with >> existing parties. However, investing energies into putting the >> party >> and platform above people and their actual problems tends to >> consistently attract a really destructive element. So, I think a >> key >> here is trust first. Each participant has a way to work out trust >> with >> the others. if there is any party platform, let it be a >> *trust*-based >> platform. Technology really is not the full answer here, either. >> Neither is full answer community currency, nor open source >> hardware >> or >> software (although these are in my opinion components towards an >> effective shift in a positive direction that can help the >> majority >> of >> people struggling here). The problem is within the minds of >> people. >> We >> here in Michigan need to ***learn how to finally build real >> relationships of trust*** over and above anything else. Maybe >> technologies can help, but human learning trumps technology here. >> (this email will be re-worked to be part of the blog post). >> Trust, >> real empathy and compassion for other people, and a positive >> insight >> that there is a path towards resolving the existing problems is >> the >> most effective focus. So, I am really committed to the idea of >> rejecting creating a new political party in favor of creating a >> permanent effort for peer to peer political advocacy, learning, >> re-ignition of local connections of trust and ethical wealth >> creation, >> and this effort can collaborate and lend power to existing >> political >> parties that are aligned with our goals. >> >> >> > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Samuel Rose >> > <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> I will do this. I have to get these blogging requests into my >> >> schedule, starting this Sat likely. I won't be able to move >> >> much >> >> on >> >> any of it until then. My good friend writes those articles for >> >> Lansing >> >> Online News, so for sure can reference that, and will think >> >> about >> >> how >> >> this maps to a p2p political advocacy perspective. I am trying >> >> to >> >> build a relationship with the guy at the end of that video >> >> (Lansing >> >> Mayor Virg Bernero) around the Michigan Transformation >> >> concepts >> >> >> >> http://p2pfoundation.net/Michigan:_The_Transformation_Manifesto >> >> >> >> In my opinion, these are signs of a collapsing 20th century >> >> economy, >> >> with Michigan, Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Spain, and other >> >> places >> >> at >> >> the forefront of it. We could frankly use the help of people >> >> worldwide >> >> interested in p2p perspectives to think about how to move >> >> forward >> >> here >> >> in Michigan. I think there is a real opportunity, and I'll >> >> break >> >> out >> >> some of the research over the summer that we are doing with >> >> The >> >> Five >> >> Commons Report in Future Forward Institute to address things >> >> that >> >> are >> >> specific to this area, which hopefully will help people get a >> >> better >> >> idea. Also will think about an effective way to "map and >> >> model" >> >> the >> >> situation here. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Michel Bauwens >> >> <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >> > hi sam, >> >> > >> >> > you haven't yet featured the internationally underreported >> >> > michigan >> >> > situation yet, >> >> > >> >> > this would be a good starting point, >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > http://lansingonlinenews.com/news/video-virg-bernero-on-rachel-maddow-warnin... >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >> >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> >> > >> >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> >> > >> >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; >> >> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; >> >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; >> >> > http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> -- >> >> Sam Rose >> >> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation >> >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 >> >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 >> >> skype: samuelrose >> >> email: [email protected] >> >> http://futureforwardinstitute.com >> >> http://forwardfound.org >> >> http://hollymeadcapital.com >> >> http://p2pfoundation.net >> >> http://socialmediaclassroom.com >> >> >> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with >> >> human >> >> ambition." - Carl Sagan >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> > >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: >> > >> > >> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation >> > >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; >> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Sam Rose >> Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation >> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 >> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 >> skype: samuelrose >> email: [email protected] >> http://futureforwardinstitute.com >> http://forwardfound.org >> http://hollymeadcapital.com >> http://p2pfoundation.net >> http://socialmediaclassroom.com >> >> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human >> ambition." - Carl Sagan > > > > -- > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > > >
-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
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-- -- Sam Rose Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation Tel:+1(517) 639-1552 Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451 skype: samuelrose email: [email protected] http://futureforwardinstitute.com http://forwardfound.org http://hollymeadcapital.com http://p2pfoundation.net http://socialmediaclassroom.com "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
participants (3)
-
Kevin Carson -
Michel Bauwens -
Samuel Rose