I do not know whether the following will be of use......personally, I do not have alot of respect for economists but unfortunately they still have great influence in society, politics, and banking   http://ideas.repec.org/coupe.html    http://www.superscholar.org/features/20-most-influential-living-economists/     http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Biographies/Philosophy/BiosEcon.htm#top    RS. From: Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> To: robert searle <[email protected]>; P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2011, 11:27 Subject: Re: [P2P-F] A Possible Source for a Listing of "Relevant" Economists for the P2P Foundation... thanks Robert, if you come accross really specific 'commons' orientations, thanks for letting me know, Michel On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 4:17 PM, robert searle <[email protected]> wrote: Michel, et al,

The following has vids, and other data which could be helpful in forming a listing of "relevant" economists.

http://ineteconomics.org/

The next link  comes from the above. Here is the original link.  http://ineteconomics.org/question/best-new-media-resources-new-thinking?page...  and cut, and paste section below

..............................................

a) A campaign against economic education as it exists today.. http://www.toxictextbooks.com/ b) Paecon, the student movement which still tries to change things in economic academia. http://paecon.net/ c) Heterodox Economics deals ofcourse with alternative economic ideas... http://www.hetecon.com/ d) Heterodox Directory... http://www.heterodoxnews.com/directory/index.htm ******************************************************

When I get the energy, and time I maybe able to supply more info...but this should keep you "quiet" for the time being. You may have already come across this site before.

RS    _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

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"The issue comes to be how to sort out the varieties of fraud..." Yes indeed. It seems to be almost a matter of pride among many economists to recite discredited "free enterprise" slogans as if they were verified economic facts and to studiously ignore major pieces of the economic theory puzzle that do not accord with those slogans. Even "liberal Keynesians" repeat uncritically the "lump-of-labor fallacy" propaganda of 19th century anti-union agitators and have never heard of Sydney J. Chapman's painstakingly orthodox (but devastating to free market orthodoxy) theory of the hours of labour. On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:18 AM, <[email protected]> wrote:

One of the rules of thumb I have used is that if an "economist" does not place the managment of the "community," "niche," or even "commons" central to their ideas of an economic theory and fiscal policy, they are mostly likely "political" 'economists." This is under the pretense of economics appearing to be iconic natural "scientists," very much in the manner of 19th century physics but with the lifting of forms of theoretical modeling of physics and chemistry that are mistaken as evidence of the credibility of economics as a "social physics" to use Emile Durkheim's aspiration.

Further back this takes us into a patch of the history of ideas when it was 'assumed' that doing science was an occupation of the rich and well born. Positing science essentially elevates a hand of of assumptions beyond examination. The ensuing "discourse" lacks an interest in reproducing a bit of the open inductive process by way of a discourse held in common. Are their principles and assumptions concerning the "commons" and the ongoing enclosures?

Pop-economics often operates in a similar manner in that the merit of a policy or practice is validated largely upon various poorly defined values. Some times the effort involved can be huge. I set out to review a pop-level economics book once that after 50 pages of the author's text, I had 15 pages of commentary including the results of following references back to the source to see if the article, piece of legislation, and history match up with the conclusions drawn and 'facts' asserted. For the most part the problems and misappropriation of every thing handy and likely to be persuasive.

The issue comes to be how to sort out the varieties of fraud, in particular when the evidence and substantives offered don't provide much actual validation based upon a scientific discourse based upon match up to details of adequacy, validity, applicability, and reliability. Faith based economics usually runs aground much like proprietary software that is large on the return on investment ratios and then light concern elsewhere. This is also where labor is considered to be simply a commodity and having no conception or concern that economies tend to be demand side driven, not by the supply side.

Pay no attention to the suits behind the corporate curtain.

Tadit Anderson

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 07:18:28 -0400, robert searle <[email protected]> wrote:

...

I do not know whether the following will be of use......personally, I do not have alot of respect for economists but unfortunately they still have great influence in society, politics, and banking http://ideas.repec.org/coupe.html

http://www.superscholar.org/features/20-most-influential-living-economists/

...

http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Biographies/Philosophy/BiosEcon.htm#top

...

RS.

_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

-- Sandwichman

While I fully agree with your take, I see it as a direct result of neo-classical economics (better described as an ideology in no fashion as a legitimate science) specifically labor is treated as a commodity foremost, not as a participant in the commons also known as an economy. Of course the general pandering and the courtier's deference to the amassing of unearned "rent" (including the result of the suppression of wages. Technologies which diminish the value of labor actually result in the reduction of labor's participation in economic life. Krugman is simply a well paid courtier who continue to be amply rewarded to spew dysinformation with a veneer of liberal buzz words. From this point I normally point out the distinctions that place the variety of post John Maynard Keynes's associated with functional finance and science based economics at the distant margins of proprietary version of the scientific commons. Try to ween your self away from regarding Krugman as anything other than a high paid toady. Tadit On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 23:07:09 -0400, Sandwichman <[email protected]> wrote:

And here it comes again. In a paper<http://www.aeaweb.org/econwhitepapers/white_papers/David_Autor.pdf>prepared for the National Science Foundation, MIT and NBER economist David H. Autor and Harvard and NBER economist Lawrence F. Katz wrote:

Leading economists from Paul Samuelson to Paul Krugman have labored to allay the fear that technological advances may reduce overall employment, causing mass unemployment as workers are displaced by machines. This ‘lump of labor fallacy’—positing that there is a fixed amount of work to be done so that increased labor productivity reduces employment —is intuitively appealing and demonstrably false. Technological improvements create new products and services, shifting workers from older to newer activities. Higher productivity raises incomes, increasing demand for labor throughout the economy. Hence, in the long run technological progress affects the composition of jobs not the number of jobs.

First of all, Samuelson and Krugman didn't "labor to allay the fear." They spouted canned nonsense that was disavowed by "leading economists" nearly a century ago. Back in May I wrote Professor Krugman an open letter<http://ecologicalheadstand.blogspot.com/2011/05/open-letter-to-paul-krugman.html>(hard copy sent by mail) detailing the discrepancies in the lump of labor fallacy claim and asking him to at least respond to the evidence I presented. Krugman did not reply.

I will, of course, forward copies of that open letter to Professors Autor and Katz -- with no great expectations. Maybe if a half dozen or so list members would write to professors Autor [[email protected]] and Katz [ [email protected]] demanding that they either retract their demonstrably false claims about the alleged fallacy or rebut the evidence presented in my letter to Paul Krugman, this could be an instance where shaming the perpetrators of a lie could have some good effect.

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Sandwichman <[email protected]> wrote:

...

"The issue comes to be how to sort out the varieties of fraud..."

Yes indeed. It seems to be almost a matter of pride among many economists to recite discredited "free enterprise" slogans as if they were verified economic facts and to studiously ignore major pieces of the economic theory puzzle that do not accord with those slogans. Even "liberal Keynesians" repeat uncritically the "lump-of-labor fallacy" propaganda of 19th century anti-union agitators and have never heard of Sydney J. Chapman's painstakingly orthodox (but devastating to free market orthodoxy) theory of the hours of labour.

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:18 AM, <[email protected]> wrote:

...

One of the rules of thumb I have used is that if an "economist" does not place the managment of the "community," "niche," or even "commons" central to their ideas of an economic theory and fiscal policy, they are mostly likely "political" 'economists." This is under the pretense of economics appearing to be iconic natural "scientists," very much in the manner of 19th century physics but with the lifting of forms of theoretical modeling of physics and chemistry that are mistaken as evidence of the credibility of economics as a "social physics" to use Emile Durkheim's aspiration.

Further back this takes us into a patch of the history of ideas when it was 'assumed' that doing science was an occupation of the rich and well born. Positing science essentially elevates a hand of of assumptions beyond examination. The ensuing "discourse" lacks an interest in reproducing a bit of the open inductive process by way of a discourse held in common. Are their principles and assumptions concerning the "commons" and the ongoing enclosures?

Pop-economics often operates in a similar manner in that the merit of a policy or practice is validated largely upon various poorly defined values. Some times the effort involved can be huge. I set out to review a pop-level economics book once that after 50 pages of the author's text, I had 15 pages of commentary including the results of following references back to the source to see if the article, piece of legislation, and history match up with the conclusions drawn and 'facts' asserted. For the most part the problems and misappropriation of every thing handy and likely to be persuasive.

The issue comes to be how to sort out the varieties of fraud, in particular when the evidence and substantives offered don't provide much actual validation based upon a scientific discourse based upon match up to details of adequacy, validity, applicability, and reliability. Faith based economics usually runs aground much like proprietary software that is large on the return on investment ratios and then light concern elsewhere. This is also where labor is considered to be simply a commodity and having no conception or concern that economies tend to be demand side driven, not by the supply side.

Pay no attention to the suits behind the corporate curtain.

Tadit Anderson

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 07:18:28 -0400, robert searle <[email protected]> wrote:

...

I do not know whether the following will be of use......personally, I do not have alot of respect for economists but unfortunately they still have great influence in society, politics, and banking http://ideas.repec.org/coupe.html

http://www.superscholar.org/features/20-most-influential-living-economists/

...

http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Biographies/Philosophy/BiosEcon.htm#top

...

RS.

_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

-- Sandwichman

not sure if political economists equals political economy .. the latter indicates that the economy is inherently political and linked to the political and social structure of society, as well as value choices ... so-called scientific economists, but as we know, ideologues, have eliminated the 'political', to create the impression that the economy is just some objective value-free functioning that can be modelled etc ... outside of this historical frame, every economist is political in the narrow sense of the word as well, there is no way to have a vision and an understand of the economy, outside of political and social choices On another issue, the issue of labor and employment. While it is undoubtedly true that technology and its productivity eliminates jobs, it is equally true that there are many unmet human and social needs that could be taken up 'as jobs', and have been. The welfare state and mutualism have created a vast array of services that did not exist before while its prosperity has created a vast entertainment complex. Of course, other options would be available, such as shortening the working week. However, to analyse the 2008 meltdown as a result of technological productivity (technology destroying jobs) is in my view profoundly misleading. The joblessness we are experiencing is not a result of a sudden drop in need, but to the many interlocking factors that are part of capitalist crisis and in particular the exhaustion of a Kondratieff wave and a particular economic model. Which does not mean that confronted with unemployment, a reduction of the working week would make economic sense. Joblessness is not an objective result of technology, but a particular, choice-laden expression of an economic crisis. The answer to the crisis is equally political, whether it is 'jobs for all through time reduction', or the choice of very different models such as the basic income etc .. On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 9:18 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

One of the rules of thumb I have used is that if an "economist" does not place the managment of the "community," "niche," or even "commons" central to their ideas of an economic theory and fiscal policy, they are mostly likely "political" 'economists." This is under the pretense of economics appearing to be iconic natural "scientists," very much in the manner of 19th century physics but with the lifting of forms of theoretical modeling of physics and chemistry that are mistaken as evidence of the credibility of economics as a "social physics" to use Emile Durkheim's aspiration.

Further back this takes us into a patch of the history of ideas when it was 'assumed' that doing science was an occupation of the rich and well born. Positing science essentially elevates a hand of of assumptions beyond examination. The ensuing "discourse" lacks an interest in reproducing a bit of the open inductive process by way of a discourse held in common. Are their principles and assumptions concerning the "commons" and the ongoing enclosures?

Pop-economics often operates in a similar manner in that the merit of a policy or practice is validated largely upon various poorly defined values. Some times the effort involved can be huge. I set out to review a pop-level economics book once that after 50 pages of the author's text, I had 15 pages of commentary including the results of following references back to the source to see if the article, piece of legislation, and history match up with the conclusions drawn and 'facts' asserted. For the most part the problems and misappropriation of every thing handy and likely to be persuasive.

The issue comes to be how to sort out the varieties of fraud, in particular when the evidence and substantives offered don't provide much actual validation based upon a scientific discourse based upon match up to details of adequacy, validity, applicability, and reliability. Faith based economics usually runs aground much like proprietary software that is large on the return on investment ratios and then light concern elsewhere. This is also where labor is considered to be simply a commodity and having no conception or concern that economies tend to be demand side driven, not by the supply side.

Pay no attention to the suits behind the corporate curtain.

Tadit Anderson

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 07:18:28 -0400, robert searle <[email protected]> wrote:

...

I do not know whether the following will be of use......personally, I do not have alot of respect for economists but unfortunately they still have great influence in society, politics, and banking http://ideas.repec.org/coupe.html

http://www.superscholar.org/features/20-most-influential-living-economists/

...

http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Biographies/Philosophy/BiosEcon.htm#top

...

RS.

_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

well spotted, it should have been 'wouldn't' !! On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Sandwichman <[email protected]> wrote:

I presume you unintentionally omitted an 'nt in your last paragraph, first sentence, Michel.

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]>wrote:

...

not sure if political economists equals political economy ..

the latter indicates that the economy is inherently political and linked to the political and social structure of society, as well as value choices ...

so-called scientific economists, but as we know, ideologues, have eliminated the 'political', to create the impression that the economy is just some objective value-free functioning that can be modelled etc ...

outside of this historical frame, every economist is political in the narrow sense of the word as well, there is no way to have a vision and an understand of the economy, outside of political and social choices

On another issue, the issue of labor and employment. While it is undoubtedly true that technology and its productivity eliminates jobs, it is equally true that there are many unmet human and social needs that could be taken up 'as jobs', and have been. The welfare state and mutualism have created a vast array of services that did not exist before while its prosperity has created a vast entertainment complex. Of course, other options would be available, such as shortening the working week.

However, to analyse the 2008 meltdown as a result of technological productivity (technology destroying jobs) is in my view profoundly misleading. The joblessness we are experiencing is not a result of a sudden drop in need, but to the many interlocking factors that are part of capitalist crisis and in particular the exhaustion of a Kondratieff wave and a particular economic model.

Which does not mean that confronted with unemployment, a reduction of the working week would make economic sense. Joblessness is not an objective result of technology, but a particular, choice-laden expression of an economic crisis. The answer to the crisis is equally political, whether it is 'jobs for all through time reduction', or the choice of very different models such as the basic income etc ..

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 9:18 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

...

One of the rules of thumb I have used is that if an "economist" does not place the managment of the "community," "niche," or even "commons" central to their ideas of an economic theory and fiscal policy, they are mostly likely "political" 'economists." This is under the pretense of economics appearing to be iconic natural "scientists," very much in the manner of 19th century physics but with the lifting of forms of theoretical modeling of physics and chemistry that are mistaken as evidence of the credibility of economics as a "social physics" to use Emile Durkheim's aspiration.

Further back this takes us into a patch of the history of ideas when it was 'assumed' that doing science was an occupation of the rich and well born. Positing science essentially elevates a hand of of assumptions beyond examination. The ensuing "discourse" lacks an interest in reproducing a bit of the open inductive process by way of a discourse held in common. Are their principles and assumptions concerning the "commons" and the ongoing enclosures?

Pop-economics often operates in a similar manner in that the merit of a policy or practice is validated largely upon various poorly defined values. Some times the effort involved can be huge. I set out to review a pop-level economics book once that after 50 pages of the author's text, I had 15 pages of commentary including the results of following references back to the source to see if the article, piece of legislation, and history match up with the conclusions drawn and 'facts' asserted. For the most part the problems and misappropriation of every thing handy and likely to be persuasive.

The issue comes to be how to sort out the varieties of fraud, in particular when the evidence and substantives offered don't provide much actual validation based upon a scientific discourse based upon match up to details of adequacy, validity, applicability, and reliability. Faith based economics usually runs aground much like proprietary software that is large on the return on investment ratios and then light concern elsewhere. This is also where labor is considered to be simply a commodity and having no conception or concern that economies tend to be demand side driven, not by the supply side.

Pay no attention to the suits behind the corporate curtain.

Tadit Anderson

On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 07:18:28 -0400, robert searle <[email protected]> wrote:

...

I do not know whether the following will be of use......personally, I do not have alot of respect for economists but unfortunately they still have great influence in society, politics, and banking http://ideas.repec.org/coupe.html

http://www.superscholar.org/features/20-most-influential-living-economists/

...

http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Biographies/Philosophy/BiosEcon.htm#top

...

RS.

_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

-- Sandwichman

_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

-- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens