Patrick, I think that the idea that the true revenue of society is product has been around for quite a while. It's even been understood on occasion. But let's make the discussion stranger still. What if the general public were issued production contracts? Leaving aside of course the question of how exactly these contracts are delivered to the general public. Regards Alan -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Anderson <[email protected]> To: P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Dec 13, 2011 4:46 pm Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Please help me understand who are "investors?" Investing for Profit incents scarcity and destruction. This is the way of Capitalism. Investing for Product incents abundance and peace. This the way forward. Profit is undefined when Product is ROI. Only Conumers as Investors can accept Product as the return for risk. We will forever have internal conflicts and the seemingly inescapable paradoxes until we choose Consumers as our Investors, and pay them with Product while never needing to sell that Product except during Surplus. In that case, when Surplus is sold, we should collect the Profit from those latecomers and treat it as their own Investment in Use-Value production, so that all Consumers incrementally gain the co-ownership needed to insure they have the Products they need without resorting to the use of Tokens. One of these days someone will understand this message, and then we can begin to reclaim our planet, but not before. _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation