Please help me understand who are "investors?"
Every day the mainstream press relates how "investors": have driven up or down the price of European sovereign debt and other bonds and commodities. Could it be that with the deregulation of the financial sector we really have no idea from these bastards actually are? certainly hedge funds are among them as quants use sophisticated algorithms to buy and sell on the basis of formulas that very likely few people know or even begin to understand. Marching hand-in-hand with these investors are the Wall Street banks with their bond trading offices. and added into the infernal brew is high-frequency trading. Indeed one wonders whether the speculative financial markets have created and unleashed a predatory monster that step by step is bringing down the economy of the euro zone nations along with that of the United States. the trading of these bonds is running effectively is an entirely speculative operation benefiting the bond traders and the one 10th of one percent with so much wealth that they have nothing better to do than to bet in the casino. As of 30 or 40 years ago markets were supposed to raise capital for productive investments in education or infrastructure. today it would seem than bond rating is largely destructive but that it also goes on and on without question and without anyone even daring to raise a tax on financial transactions that might slow down the speed of destruction. How can this be? How is it possible for the mainstream media to talk solely of unknown “investors”? does anyone really have an idea of who these investors are? they surely are very very different from those of the 70s when investment banks were still private partnerships and global finance had not yet become a casino. Are readers here aware of anyone anywhere raising these questions? Investors in bond markets surely include pension funds but from what I have seen most of the pension fund managers entrust their investment decisions to bond traders at Goldman Sachs and the like who then take a proprietary algorithmic approach to doing “investment” on behalf of their clients. What is inside the algorithm other than profit for the traders? it seems that no one knows. Is this really correct? What am I missing? Surely I'm not the only one asking these questions? It seems as though the profits are to be made by undercutting confidence in the ponds and raising interest rates beyond sustainable levels have been since the banks capture the economy prevents interest rates set by central banks and anything above essentially 0, the only place left to gamble or “make” money is the bond market. And yet we have this powerful high-frequency trading system running on automated pilot being left on question to wreak its destructive path. Because all of this is the market magic of “investors”. How can it be that we are still allowing our futures to be determined by this allegedly free-market of "investors" of unknown identity. What am I missing? ============================================================= The COOK Report on Internet Protocol, (PSTN) 609 882-2572 Back Issues: http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=37&I... Cook's Collaborative Edge Blog http://gordoncook.net/wp/ Subscription info: http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&It... =============================================================
Investing for Profit incents scarcity and destruction. This is the way of Capitalism. Investing for Product incents abundance and peace. This the way forward. Profit is undefined when Product is ROI. Only Conumers as Investors can accept Product as the return for risk. We will forever have internal conflicts and the seemingly inescapable paradoxes until we choose Consumers as our Investors, and pay them with Product while never needing to sell that Product except during Surplus. In that case, when Surplus is sold, we should collect the Profit from those latecomers and treat it as their own Investment in Use-Value production, so that all Consumers incrementally gain the co-ownership needed to insure they have the Products they need without resorting to the use of Tokens. One of these days someone will understand this message, and then we can begin to reclaim our planet, but not before.
thank you Patrick. I suppose you are a few steps ahead of me and i generally LIKE what you say. However my questions still stands. Under the current system who are these investors? I suspect that the answer is we really don't know and i also suspect that the current system is constructed so that we will never find out. Since the current system has no transparency we are left at the mercy of a system that because it contains some legitimate users. Coupon clipping grandmother perhaps allows market manipulators to take over and pillage an economy in the manner that used to require an invading army. Is there anyway to find out? Has anyone of more so called professional standing than you or i suggested that it would be worthwhile to find out? ============================================================= The COOK Report on Internet Protocol, (PSTN) 609 882-2572 Back Issues: http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=37&I... Cook's Collaborative Edge Blog http://gordoncook.net/wp/ Subscription info: http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&It... ============================================================= On Dec 13, 2011, at 5:32 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote:
Investing for Profit incents scarcity and destruction. This is the way of Capitalism.
Investing for Product incents abundance and peace. This the way forward.
Profit is undefined when Product is ROI.
Only Conumers as Investors can accept Product as the return for risk.
We will forever have internal conflicts and the seemingly inescapable paradoxes until we choose Consumers as our Investors, and pay them with Product while never needing to sell that Product except during Surplus.
In that case, when Surplus is sold, we should collect the Profit from those latecomers and treat it as their own Investment in Use-Value production, so that all Consumers incrementally gain the co-ownership needed to insure they have the Products they need without resorting to the use of Tokens.
One of these days someone will understand this message, and then we can begin to reclaim our planet, but not before.
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Gordon, I recently saw a documentary in which one economist, probably from the ECB, said that they were trying to track down the debt of the European countries so as to erase debt in situations in which 2 parties had a debt to each other. He said that they failled miserably in their efforts. 2011/12/14 Gordon Cook <[email protected]>
thank you Patrick. I suppose you are a few steps ahead of me and i generally LIKE what you say. However my questions still stands. Under the current system *who are these investors?*
I suspect that the answer is we really don't know and i also suspect that the current system is constructed so that we will never find out. Since the current system has no transparency we are left at the mercy of a system that because it contains some legitimate users. Coupon clipping grandmother perhaps allows market manipulators to take over and pillage an economy in the manner that used to require an invading army.
Is there anyway to find out?
Has anyone of more so called professional standing than you or i suggested that it would be worthwhile to find out?
============================================================= The COOK Report on Internet Protocol, (PSTN) 609 882-2572 Back Issues: http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=37&I...
Cook's Collaborative Edge Blog http://gordoncook.net/wp/ Subscription info: http://www.cookreport.com/index.php? option=com_content&view=article&id=54&Itemid=65 =============================================================
On Dec 13, 2011, at 5:32 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote:
Investing for Profit incents scarcity and destruction. This is the way of Capitalism.
Investing for Product incents abundance and peace. This the way forward.
Profit is undefined when Product is ROI.
Only Conumers as Investors can accept Product as the return for risk.
We will forever have internal conflicts and the seemingly inescapable paradoxes until we choose Consumers as our Investors, and pay them with Product while never needing to sell that Product except during Surplus.
In that case, when Surplus is sold, we should collect the Profit from those latecomers and treat it as their own Investment in Use-Value production, so that all Consumers incrementally gain the co-ownership needed to insure they have the Products they need without resorting to the use of Tokens.
One of these days someone will understand this message, and then we can begin to reclaim our planet, but not before.
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- Sincerely yours, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
May I propose a perhaps controversial, and worrying suggestion? Are these investors... the people RESPONSIBLE... us? Is the real issue that none of us understand the intricacies of the world economic system, but we still have nice, secure, responsible things like PENSIONS and BANK ACCOUNTS? We entrust our assets (well unfortunately, I don't - I don't have a pension) to pension providers because what we want to buy is low risk, good return investment for our old age. The problem is that, even if we read the small print from our pension fund, and attend endless meetings with our "independent financial advisers" we're simply not equipped to understand the nuances and side-effects of our investments will have. I suggest that the world financial system is sufficiently dynamic and complex to be beyond human understanding, EVEN IF you make a career out of studying it. So at that meeting we look our financial adviser in the eye, and say "Hey, let's cut to the chase - is this investment going to fund wars in foreign countries? Is it going to bankroll landmine dealers and cigarette companies? No? And is it going to make a reasonable return and be safe for my retirement? Yes?" Job done. That's the limit of the "due diligence" a layman CAN apply. I think I own a few hundred pounds' worth of shares (part of some bank restructuring, I think...) but I've never voted at a shareholders' meeting. I've no idea who or what I'd be voting for, or what the implications of my vote would be. I've not even delegated my votes to an informed proxy - because I don't know what their approach or attitude is - and I have no idea how to find out. And no - I don't have time to make a career out of it. Hell, I don't even know what those shares are worth - less than 500 UKP, I gather... But if it all evaporates, I wouldn't be surprised - I have better things to think about. I, and many (most?) of my fellow shareholders and pension holders, are asleep at the financial wheel. And we haven't got the time or expertise, or information to wake up. We've ended up in a situtation which is so complex, so interlinked, and so incomprehensible (note: "incomprehensible" - not "uncomprehended") that we simply cannot make informed moral choices. We're not the problem - our context is. Best Regards, James ===== On 14/12/11 00:41, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis wrote:
Gordon, I recently saw a documentary in which one economist, probably from the ECB, said that they were trying to track down the debt of the European countries so as to erase debt in situations in which 2 parties had a debt to each other. He said that they failled miserably in their efforts.
2011/12/14 Gordon Cook <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
thank you Patrick. I suppose you are a few steps ahead of me and i generally LIKE what you say. However my questions still stands. Under the current system *who are these investors?*
I suspect that the answer is we really don't know and i also suspect that the current system is constructed so that we will never find out. Since the current system has no transparency we are left at the mercy of a system that because it contains some legitimate users. Coupon clipping grandmother perhaps allows market manipulators to take over and pillage an economy in the manner that used to require an invading army.
Is there anyway to find out?
Has anyone of more so called professional standing than you or i suggested that it would be worthwhile to find out?
============================================================= The COOK Report on Internet Protocol, (PSTN) 609 882-2572 Back Issues: http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=37&I... <http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=37&Itemid=61>
Cook's Collaborative Edge Blog http://gordoncook.net/wp/ Subscription info: http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&It... =============================================================
On Dec 13, 2011, at 5:32 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote:
Investing for Profit incents scarcity and destruction. This is the way of Capitalism.
Investing for Product incents abundance and peace. This the way forward.
Profit is undefined when Product is ROI.
Only Conumers as Investors can accept Product as the return for risk.
We will forever have internal conflicts and the seemingly inescapable paradoxes until we choose Consumers as our Investors, and pay them with Product while never needing to sell that Product except during Surplus.
In that case, when Surplus is sold, we should collect the Profit from those latecomers and treat it as their own Investment in Use-Value production, so that all Consumers incrementally gain the co-ownership needed to insure they have the Products they need without resorting to the use of Tokens.
One of these days someone will understand this message, and then we can begin to reclaim our planet, but not before.
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
--
Sincerely yours, Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- James Wallbank CEO, Access Space Network Ltd. Access Space, Unit 1, AVEC Building, 3-7 Sidney St, Sheffield S1 4RG Access Space is UK Registered Charity: #1103837 Tel: +44 (0)114 2495522 Fax: +44 (0)114 2495533 Web: http://access-space.org
James Wallbank wrote:
Are these investors... the people RESPONSIBLE... us?
Yes, but that is only because we are confused about *why* we should invest. We think we should invest so we can accumulate tokens. But tokens are only *pointers* to value. We should be investing for Product, but for some reason cannot imagine this simplified scenario. We need to build For-Product corporations funded by the Consumers of those Products. People who want eggs would co-own a chicken farm. People who want milk would co-own a dairy. People who want public transportation would co-own a bus. People who want Internet connectivity would co-own an ISP. People who want cloud storage would co-own a datacenter. There is no need to sell those products, except the surplus. Any surplus sold should be sold at a Profit (allowing the market to set the Price), but then we must treat that overpayment as though it were an Investment from that latecoming, disadvantaged Payer - so each and every one of us can eventually co-own the Means required to Produce all that we need.
Gordon, hey, I don't necessarily understand Patrick either. I'm trying to catch up to his paradigm bit by bit. Who are these investors? He proposes that the customers are to become owners, but since in all likelihood the customers may not have the initial capital necessary to sufficiently consecrate a going concern to serve their interests, I think it's a reasonable assumption that bridge investors must be found to kick things off. Over time these bridge investors can be replaced by the customers themselves at the cash register. Imagine handing out change for example in the form of units redeemable in product. Regards Alan -----Original Message----- From: Gordon Cook <[email protected]> To: P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Dec 13, 2011 6:18 pm Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Please help me understand who are "investors?" thank you Patrick. I suppose you are a few steps ahead of me and i generally LIKE what you say. However my questions still stands. Under the current system who are these investors? I suspect that the answer is we really don't know and i also suspect that the current system is constructed so that we will never find out. Since the current system has no transparency we are left at the mercy of a system that because it contains some legitimate users. Coupon clipping grandmother perhaps allows market manipulators to take over and pillage an economy in the manner that used to require an invading army. Is there anyway to find out? Has anyone of more so called professional standing than you or i suggested that it would be worthwhile to find out? ============================================================= The COOK Report on Internet Protocol, (PSTN) 609 882-2572 Back Issues: http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=37&I... Cook's Collaborative Edge Blog http://gordoncook.net/wp/ Subscription info: http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&It... ============================================================= On Dec 13, 2011, at 5:32 PM, Patrick Anderson wrote: Investing for Profit incents scarcity and destruction. This is the way of Capitalism. Investing for Product incents abundance and peace. This the way forward. Profit is undefined when Product is ROI. Only Conumers as Investors can accept Product as the return for risk. We will forever have internal conflicts and the seemingly inescapable paradoxes until we choose Consumers as our Investors, and pay them with Product while never needing to sell that Product except during Surplus. In that case, when Surplus is sold, we should collect the Profit from those latecomers and treat it as their own Investment in Use-Value production, so that all Consumers incrementally gain the co-ownership needed to insure they have the Products they need without resorting to the use of Tokens. One of these days someone will understand this message, and then we can begin to reclaim our planet, but not before. _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Patrick, I think that the idea that the true revenue of society is product has been around for quite a while. It's even been understood on occasion. But let's make the discussion stranger still. What if the general public were issued production contracts? Leaving aside of course the question of how exactly these contracts are delivered to the general public. Regards Alan -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Anderson <[email protected]> To: P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Dec 13, 2011 4:46 pm Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Please help me understand who are "investors?" Investing for Profit incents scarcity and destruction. This is the way of Capitalism. Investing for Product incents abundance and peace. This the way forward. Profit is undefined when Product is ROI. Only Conumers as Investors can accept Product as the return for risk. We will forever have internal conflicts and the seemingly inescapable paradoxes until we choose Consumers as our Investors, and pay them with Product while never needing to sell that Product except during Surplus. In that case, when Surplus is sold, we should collect the Profit from those latecomers and treat it as their own Investment in Use-Value production, so that all Consumers incrementally gain the co-ownership needed to insure they have the Products they need without resorting to the use of Tokens. One of these days someone will understand this message, and then we can begin to reclaim our planet, but not before. _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Gordon, I have had a similar reaction to the constant references in the media to how 'the markets' ie investors, will see actions by financial institutions and sovereign governments. Here is an analogy, see if it runs: if, as I tend to assert, capitalism is the dominant spirituality of our times, this makes the the markets into some kind of 'heaven' inhabited by 'investment gods' who influence everything we do but nowhere to be seen. When, through their 'angels', eg rating agencies, the IMF etc, the gods bring bad power weather and compound interest strikes, action has to be taken to appease the gods, 'sacrifices' are identified and offered. However, the power weather continues unabated. Extricating ourselves from the grip of capitalist spirituality is likely just as difficult as it was for western religionists three centuries ago to extricate themselves from a universal belief in a domineering god who knew everything and was everywhere and whose agents required sacrifices when sin was detected. Denis On 13/12/2011 21:38, Gordon Cook wrote:
Every day the mainstream press relates how "investors": have driven up or down the price of European sovereign debt and other bonds and commodities.
Could it be that with the deregulation of the financial sector we really have no idea from these bastards actually are? certainly hedge funds are among them as quants use sophisticated algorithms to buy and sell on the basis of formulas that very likely few people know or even begin to understand. Marching hand-in-hand with these investors are the Wall Street banks with their bond trading offices. and added into the infernal brew is high-frequency trading.
Indeed one wonders whether the speculative financial markets have created and unleashed a predatory monster that step by step is bringing down the economy of the euro zone nations along with that of the United States.
the trading of these bonds is running effectively is an entirely speculative operation benefiting the bond traders and the one 10th of one percent with so much wealth that they have nothing better to do than to bet in the casino. As of 30 or 40 years ago markets were supposed to raise capital for productive investments in education or infrastructure. today it would seem than bond rating is largely destructive but that it also goes on and on without question and without anyone even daring to raise a tax on financial transactions that might slow down the speed of destruction. How can this be? How is it possible for the mainstream media to talk solely of unknown "investors"?
does anyone really have an idea of who these investors are? they surely are very very different from those of the 70s when investment banks were still private partnerships and global finance had not yet become a casino.
Are readers here aware of anyone anywhere raising these questions*?*
Investors in bond markets surely include pension funds but from what I have seen most of the pension fund managers entrust their investment decisions to bond traders at Goldman Sachs and the like who then take a proprietary algorithmic approach to doing "investment" on behalf of their clients. What is inside the algorithm other than profit for the traders? it seems that no one knows. Is this really correct? What am I missing? Surely I'm not the only one asking these questions?
It seems as though the profits are to be made by undercutting confidence in the ponds and raising interest rates beyond sustainable levels have been since the banks capture the economy prevents interest rates set by central banks and anything above essentially 0, the only place left to gamble or "make" money is the bond market. And yet we have this powerful high-frequency trading system running on automated pilot being left on question to wreak its destructive path. Because all of this is the market magic of "investors". How can it be that we are still allowing our futures to be determined by this allegedly free-market of "investors" of unknown identity.
What am I missing?
============================================================= The COOK Report on Internet Protocol, (PSTN) 609 882-2572 Back Issues: http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=37&I... <http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=37&Itemid=61>
Cook's Collaborative Edge Blog http://gordoncook.net/wp/ Subscription info: http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&It... <http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&Itemid=65> =============================================================
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- The Mind Gymnasium FREE ebook Library <http://www.mind-gymnasium.com/> A unique digital resource for Personal and Professional development
Than you to everyone who responded...... This leaves us with fend for ourselves building resilliant communities it looks like to me. Hat tip John Robb On Dec 14, 2011, at 2:05 AM, Denis Postle wrote:
Gordon, I have had a similar reaction to the constant references in the media to how 'the markets' ie investors, will see actions by financial institutions and sovereign governments.
Here is an analogy, see if it runs: if, as I tend to assert, capitalism is the dominant spirituality of our times, this makes the the markets into some kind of 'heaven' inhabited by 'investment gods' who influence everything we do but nowhere to be seen. When, through their 'angels', eg rating agencies, the IMF etc, the gods bring bad power weather and compound interest strikes, action has to be taken to appease the gods, 'sacrifices' are identified and offered. However, the power weather continues unabated.
Extricating ourselves from the grip of capitalist spirituality is likely just as difficult as it was for western religionists three centuries ago to extricate themselves from a universal belief in a domineering god who knew everything and was everywhere and whose agents required sacrifices when sin was detected.
Denis
On 13/12/2011 21:38, Gordon Cook wrote:
Every day the mainstream press relates how "investors": have driven up or down the price of European sovereign debt and other bonds and commodities.
Could it be that with the deregulation of the financial sector we really have no idea from these bastards actually are? certainly hedge funds are among them as quants use sophisticated algorithms to buy and sell on the basis of formulas that very likely few people know or even begin to understand. Marching hand-in-hand with these investors are the Wall Street banks with their bond trading offices. and added into the infernal brew is high-frequency trading.
Indeed one wonders whether the speculative financial markets have created and unleashed a predatory monster that step by step is bringing down the economy of the euro zone nations along with that of the United States.
the trading of these bonds is running effectively is an entirely speculative operation benefiting the bond traders and the one 10th of one percent with so much wealth that they have nothing better to do than to bet in the casino. As of 30 or 40 years ago markets were supposed to raise capital for productive investments in education or infrastructure. today it would seem than bond rating is largely destructive but that it also goes on and on without question and without anyone even daring to raise a tax on financial transactions that might slow down the speed of destruction. How can this be? How is it possible for the mainstream media to talk solely of unknown “investors”?
does anyone really have an idea of who these investors are? they surely are very very different from those of the 70s when investment banks were still private partnerships and global finance had not yet become a casino.
Are readers here aware of anyone anywhere raising these questions?
Investors in bond markets surely include pension funds but from what I have seen most of the pension fund managers entrust their investment decisions to bond traders at Goldman Sachs and the like who then take a proprietary algorithmic approach to doing “investment” on behalf of their clients. What is inside the algorithm other than profit for the traders? it seems that no one knows. Is this really correct? What am I missing? Surely I'm not the only one asking these questions?
It seems as though the profits are to be made by undercutting confidence in the ponds and raising interest rates beyond sustainable levels have been since the banks capture the economy prevents interest rates set by central banks and anything above essentially 0, the only place left to gamble or “make” money is the bond market. And yet we have this powerful high-frequency trading system running on automated pilot being left on question to wreak its destructive path. Because all of this is the market magic of “investors”. How can it be that we are still allowing our futures to be determined by this allegedly free-market of "investors" of unknown identity.
What am I missing?
============================================================= The COOK Report on Internet Protocol, (PSTN) 609 882-2572 Back Issues: http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=37&I... Cook's Collaborative Edge Blog http://gordoncook.net/wp/ Subscription info: http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&It... =============================================================
_______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
-- The Mind Gymnasium FREE ebook Library A unique digital resource for Personal and Professional development _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
Gordon Cook wrote:
This leaves us with fend for ourselves building resilient communities it looks like to me.
We, as groups, can build resilient communities if we can break free from the programming that tells us investments must be for Profit. We, as groups, can build resilient outcomes if we begin investing for Products. Resilience cannot be found in a production model that requires we feed off of the disadvantage of those who have not yet organized. Our resilient organizations must allow latecomers to pay more than Costs (to pay Profit), but we must recognize they overpay because they are at a disadvantage, and so we must treat that overpayment as their *investment* - so that we all can co-own the Means of Production in the amount we each need of those Products. There is no reason to buy or sell when the co- owners of the Means of Production are the consumers of those Products, for in that case, the Product is already in the hands of those who will consume it.
Ever heard of Alternative Trading Systems, Multilateral Trading Facilities and possibly other places wherein lurks 'dark liquidity' and 'dark inventory'? Chris Cook has been writing about these things for a decade or more, so you're not alone. Other folks wonder about this stuff. Regards Alan -----Original Message----- From: Gordon Cook <[email protected]> To: P2P Foundation mailing list <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Dec 13, 2011 4:09 pm Subject: [P2P-F] Please help me understand who are "investors?" Every day the mainstream press relates how "investors": have driven up or down the price of European sovereign debt and other bonds and commodities. Could it be that with the deregulation of the financial sector we really have no idea from these bastards actually are? certainly hedge funds are among them as quants use sophisticated algorithms to buy and sell on the basis of formulas that very likely few people know or even begin to understand. Marching hand-in-hand with these investors are the Wall Street banks with their bond trading offices. and added into the infernal brew is high-frequency trading. Indeed one wonders whether the speculative financial markets have created and unleashed a predatory monster that step by step is bringing down the economy of the euro zone nations along with that of the United States. the trading of these bonds is running effectively is an entirely speculative operation benefiting the bond traders and the one 10th of one percent with so much wealth that they have nothing better to do than to bet in the casino. As of 30 or 40 years ago markets were supposed to raise capital for productive investments in education or infrastructure. today it would seem than bond rating is largely destructive but that it also goes on and on without question and without anyone even daring to raise a tax on financial transactions that might slow down the speed of destruction. How can this be? How is it possible for the mainstream media to talk solely of unknown “investors”? does anyone really have an idea of who these investors are? they surely are very very different from those of the 70s when investment banks were still private partnerships and global finance had not yet become a casino. Are readers here aware of anyone anywhere raising these questions? Investors in bond markets surely include pension funds but from what I have seen most of the pension fund managers entrust their investment decisions to bond traders at Goldman Sachs and the like who then take a proprietary algorithmic approach to doing “investment” on behalf of their clients. What is inside the algorithm other than profit for the traders? it seems that no one knows. Is this really correct? What am I missing? Surely I'm not the only one asking these questions? It seems as though the profits are to be made by undercutting confidence in the ponds and raising interest rates beyond sustainable levels have been since the banks capture the economy prevents interest rates set by central banks and anything above essentially 0, the only place left to gamble or “make” money is the bond market. And yet we have this powerful high-frequency trading system running on automated pilot being left on question to wreak its destructive path. Because all of this is the market magic of “investors”. How can it be that we are still allowing our futures to be determined by this allegedly free-market of "investors" of unknown identity. What am I missing? ============================================================= The COOK Report on Internet Protocol, (PSTN) 609 882-2572 Back Issues: http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=37&I... Cook's Collaborative Edge Blog http://gordoncook.net/wp/ Subscription info: http://www.cookreport.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54&It... ============================================================= _______________________________________________ P2P Foundation - Mailing list http://www.p2pfoundation.net https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
participants (6)
-
adavans＠aol.com -
Apostolis Xekoukoulotakis -
Denis Postle -
Gordon Cook -
James Wallbank -
Patrick Anderson