Terrific – the animation video Mofwoofoo I and my colleague Pallavi at Azim Premji University , Bangalore teach a course called “Living Utopias” and two of the modules are Rojavas and Zapatista and we also take a class on Anarchism. We will use this video. We conduct this course (a) in our University at the Mater’s level as a 3 credit one semester course (b) as 6 day intensive workshop for anyone interested (c) and bits and pieces with alternative activists at grass roots as per their demand in the vernacular ( so far in Hindi and Bengali ) . I am attaching the course outline. Maybe you ,and others in this group , have more such videos which will be useful . Thanks Sujit From: GTA-PeDAGoG [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mofwoofoo Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2021 6:11 AM To: Pallav Das <[email protected]> Cc: KV Full <[email protected]>; Vikalp Sangam elist <[email protected]>; [email protected]; RED listserve <[email protected]>; Ted Trainer <[email protected]>; WSM <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PeDAGoG] [REDlistserve] A new article on the RED website - "The path to a just and sustainable society" It is great to finally see someone saying it for what it is, that is, anarchism. Exactly, what I have been advocating all along, watch the 7 minute animation that I completed in April, 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wywMhg604W8 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wywMhg604W8&t=5s> &t=5s. If you see the value in this, you might help spread it around. On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 11:06 PM Pallav Das <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: The "eco-anarchist" transition strategy relies on “prefiguring” the new social forms in the existing society. The most effective way to get people to see the sense and the merits of the new ways is to establish as many examples of them as possible here and now. This approach minimizes the chances of violent conflict; if we persuade large numbers to the alternative then radical change in structures might be brought about peacefully. Friends, A new article, "The path to a just and sustainable society" has been uploaded to the "Radical Ecological Democracy" website. In the second part of his discussion on “Eco-anarchism”, Ted Trainer lays out the core characteristics of a post consumer capitalist society, operating on the principles of “The Simpler Way”. Please share the article with your networks and join the discussion on REDlistserv. The author is copied here in case you would like to contact him directly. https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainabl... Best, Pallav <https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainable-society/> -- To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to the whole list, select "reply to all". --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Radical Ecological Democracy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> . To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CAL3de_brtJZ6... <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CAL3de_brtJZ6O6kTv41FmeW2_CKYMpoEaAqqZWUyCiJcN5etzA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> .

Dear Sarah I saw the two videos and enjoyed them and they can be used in our Master's class. I want to tell the whole group about my recent experience of a workshop with village level activists and the kind of materials and pedagogy used and the next level challenges we will face. I think this might be of interest to the whole group and people might have experience and ideas to share. Due to relaxations in lockdown I was able to conduct a two whole day , face to face , workshops with 60 people , a year after it was originally scheduled this month , on 16-17 September . About 2/3rd of participants were working at village level in 6 districts of the state of West Bengal , one district each of the states of Odisha and Jharkhand. So there were three language groups. 1/3rd were the urban staff of an NGO which works in these rural areas , primarily trying to create village discussion forums , to take forward many of the ideas of "alternatives to Industrialism" In three sessions I circulated a one page note with 10-12 main points each on Amish ( USA) , Kibbutz( Israel) , and Mendha village ( India - maharashtra ) . These notes were in vernacular language. In groups of 6-8 persons they read the note, discussed , and came up with written comments and questions in about 20 minutes . As I collected the notes and started discussing , I showed them slides of still images of Amish ( not many available) and a 5 minute clipping from a film called "Raising the Barn" . For kibbutz also still images. And for Mendha a short 10 minute film. Each of these sessions went on for more than 2 hours with lots of animated discussions. The short note, the still photos , the short film were really helpful. We had planned to do Zapatistas but ran out of time. These activists would like to tell these stories and initiate discussions at district, sub-district and at village forums which they are trying to create. But they need more "detailed stories" of such cases in the vernacular so that can handle all kinds of questions . In India Vikalp Sangam has already started writing detailed case studies in some state languages and also making audiovisuals. We are planning to translate and dub into Bengali. These short films on conceptual understanding which Sarah and Mofwoofoo sent can be tried at these levels , if we dub them in vernacular. We have used the Hindi dubbed Annie Leonard's "Story of Stuff' , and although the commentary is very fast , the dubbing has turned out quite well. We are also thinking of creating podcasts in the Q&A formats based on the questions which people raised during this workshop , as well as other relevant questions; which these activists might be able to use at several levels. Apologies for this long mail. Sujit Sinha From: GTA-PeDAGoG [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of sarah white Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 11:00 PM To: PeDAGoG: Post-Development Academic-Activist Global Group <[email protected]> Subject: [PeDAGoG] Living Utopias Videos I also loved the video - thank you for sharing. Sujit - this video is a few years old now, and set in the context of the US, (and I disagree with promoting identity politics, nationalism, and representative democracy), but I love the premise of activating our radical imaginations to expand the possible. The second video is more recent, and I have fewer criticisms. I use them both with students to inspire radical imagination projects... A Message from the Future with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9uTH0iprVQ> A Message from the Future II: Years of Repair <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m8YACFJlMg> Warmly, Sarah _____ From: GTA-PeDAGoG <[email protected]> on behalf of Sujit.Sinha <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 5:59 AM To: 'PeDAGoG: Post-Development Academic-Activist Global Group' <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>

Subject: Re: [PeDAGoG] [REDlistserve] A new article on the RED website - "The path to a just and sustainable society" Terrific - the animation video Mofwoofoo I and my colleague Pallavi at Azim Premji University , Bangalore teach a course called "Living Utopias" and two of the modules are Rojavas and Zapatista and we also take a class on Anarchism. We will use this video. We conduct this course (a) in our University at the Mater's level as a 3 credit one semester course (b) as 6 day intensive workshop for anyone interested (c) and bits and pieces with alternative activists at grass roots as per their demand in the vernacular ( so far in Hindi and Bengali ) . I am attaching the course outline. Maybe you ,and others in this group , have more such videos which will be useful . Thanks Sujit From: GTA-PeDAGoG [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mofwoofoo Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2021 6:11 AM To: Pallav Das <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Cc: KV Full <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; Vikalp Sangam elist <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> ; RED listserve <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; Ted Trainer <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >; WSM <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [PeDAGoG] [REDlistserve] A new article on the RED website - "The path to a just and sustainable society" It is great to finally see someone saying it for what it is, that is, anarchism. Exactly, what I have been advocating all along, watch the 7 minute animation that I completed in April, 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wywMhg604W8 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wywMhg604W8&t=5s> &t=5s. If you see the value in this, you might help spread it around. On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 11:06 PM Pallav Das <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: The "eco-anarchist" transition strategy relies on "prefiguring" the new social forms in the existing society. The most effective way to get people to see the sense and the merits of the new ways is to establish as many examples of them as possible here and now. This approach minimizes the chances of violent conflict; if we persuade large numbers to the alternative then radical change in structures might be brought about peacefully. Friends, A new article, "The path to a just and sustainable society" has been uploaded to the "Radical Ecological Democracy" website. In the second part of his discussion on "Eco-anarchism", Ted Trainer lays out the core characteristics of a post consumer capitalist society, operating on the principles of "The Simpler Way". Please share the article with your networks and join the discussion on REDlistserv. The author is copied here in case you would like to contact him directly. https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainabl e-society/ Best, Pallav <https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainab le-society/> -- To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to the whole list, select "reply to all". --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Radical Ecological Democracy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> . To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CAL3de_brtJZ6 O6kTv41FmeW2_CKYMpoEaAqqZWUyCiJcN5etzA%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CAL3de_brtJZ 6O6kTv41FmeW2_CKYMpoEaAqqZWUyCiJcN5etzA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&ut m_source=footer> .

Nice point Carlos. Considering how states are historically sex-gendered institutions may offer a way forward that mediates yours and Ted’s position …? Ariel On 28 Sep 2021, at 6:58 am, Carlos Tornel <[email protected]> wrote: Hi all and thanks Pallav for sharing this article! I'm relatively new on some of the lists, but I thought I could share some thoughts after the reading. I found the article quite useful for thinking about how we can start to build a post (growth, capitalism, extractive, etc.) society. I have faced similar questions and concerns when advocating for a convivial or a communal society in different spaces, such as what do we do with state power? With armies, the military, nuclear weapons, etc.? How do we move away from the Hobbian reality of power and the state? Several of the anarchist and degrowth proponentes (although not so many have looked seriously at this link until recently) have formulated proposals against this, i.e. try to reduce our dependence on the state and progressively move away from it. However this brings back the debate we've been having for some time now in Latin America, should we seek to take back the state or not? My own opinion is that we should, through several of the proposals presented in the article, such as food and energy sovereignty, we can progressively start to move away from the state, leading towards more convivial societies. However it does seem that the state will have to play a part in this transition, so perhaps we need to think of the transition from one society to another in different scales and with different agencies: I.e. What should we ask from the state? What can we do ourselves in local and communal terms and how can we continue to build networks of solidarity or communitarian entanglements at the regional, and even global level. My thanks again Pallav for sharing and to Ted for a very insightful and useful analysis. Best, Carlos El sáb, 25 sept 2021 a las 5:06, Pallav Das (<[email protected]>) escribió: The "eco-anarchist" transition strategy relies on “prefiguring” the new social forms in the existing society. The most effective way to get people to see the sense and the merits of the new ways is to establish as many examples of them as possible here and now. This approach minimizes the chances of violent conflict; if we persuade large numbers to the alternative then radical change in structures might be brought about peacefully. Friends, A new article, "The path to a just and sustainable society" has been uploaded to the "Radical Ecological Democracy" website. In the second part of his discussion on “Eco-anarchism”, Ted Trainer lays out the core characteristics of a post consumer capitalist society, operating on the principles of “The Simpler Way”. Please share the article with your networks and join the discussion on REDlistserv. The author is copied here in case you would like to contact him directly. https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainabl... Best, Pallav -- To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to the whole list, select "reply to all". --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Radical Ecological Democracy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CAL3de_brtJZ6.... -- To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to the whole list, select "reply to all". --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Radical Ecological Democracy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CABZEAVC1jxrY....

Thanks Ariel and Tom! As I was saying to Ted, I just want to clarify that I'm not advocating nor think that struggling to achieve state power is the way through - We have the experiences of Bolivia and Ecuador with indigenous or indigenous backed governments that tried to take control of the state only to find that the state operates in a global capitalist context which meant for many of them an increase forms of extraction and forms of violence against them and the very nature that they gave rights to. So I do agree with Ted that this is not the way forward, as well as with many Latin American thinkers who argue along the same lines (Holloway, Esteva, Dinerstein, etc). What I was thinking about was more in the lines of what can we still demand of the actually existing state or use the tools that already exist within it, to achieve some of the goals we want to achieve. I'm thinking particularly about some indigenous communities' struggles that are suing the state or demanding their rights be granted and respected. These are of course tools that were built by and "inside" the master's house, so I wouldn't say these will necessarily lead towards a more just or equal world, but they are nonetheless tools we can use to resist as we move forwards in the creation of a new world. So long story short, should we just ignore the state or can we 'use it', not to conquer state power, but to use the tools at our disposal keeping in mind that the ultimate goal should be societies that are rid of the state? This might refer back to the point Ariel was making about what can be mediated with existing institutions. Although I'm not sure that I agree with what Tom was mentioning. Why assume that life-saving medicine of technological innovations such as solar panels of broadband need the State? Just thinking about this in 10 year anniversary of Occupy shows that people can organize food systems, health clinics, reflection and discussion groups all without the state, universities of hospitals. Of course this doesn't mean that we should get rid of the hospitals now, but we can surely work our way forward so that all these institutions that are not necessarily there for our well-being but to create and exacerbate our dependencies on them can be rethought or simply cese to be needed in the not so distant future? Apologies for the long response but I do appreciate the chance to continue this debate and listening to other folk's opinions! All the best, C. El mié, 29 sept 2021 a las 14:14, Tom Abeles (<[email protected]>) escribió:

I would be concerned, living in such a world, if I needed life-saving medical services from vaccines to heart surgery. Similarly, I would be concerned without universities, research and technology which has given us solar panels, broadband internet and similar which is imbedded in much of what we use on a daily basis. The Buddhist Gross Happiness Index ponders these issues.

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 7:20 PM Ariel Salleh <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Nice point Carlos. Considering how states are historically sex-gendered institutions may offer a way forward that mediates yours and Ted’s position …? Ariel

On 28 Sep 2021, at 6:58 am, Carlos Tornel <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi all and thanks Pallav for sharing this article!

I'm relatively new on some of the lists, but I thought I could share some thoughts after the reading.

I found the article quite useful for thinking about how we can start to build a post (growth, capitalism, extractive, etc.) society. I have faced similar questions and concerns when advocating for a convivial or a communal society in different spaces, such as what do we do with state power? With armies, the military, nuclear weapons, etc.? How do we move away from the Hobbian reality of power and the state? Several of the anarchist and degrowth proponentes (although not so many have looked seriously at this link until recently) have formulated proposals against this, i.e. try to reduce our dependence on the state and progressively move away from it. However this brings back the debate we've been having for some time now in Latin America, should we seek to take back the state or not? My own opinion is that we should, through several of the proposals presented in the article, such as food and energy sovereignty, we can progressively start to move away from the state, leading towards more convivial societies. However it does seem that the state will have to play a part in this transition, so perhaps we need to think of the transition from one society to another in different scales and with different agencies: I.e. What should we ask from the state? What can we do ourselves in local and communal terms and how can we continue to build networks of solidarity or communitarian entanglements at the regional, and even global level.

My thanks again Pallav for sharing and to Ted for a very insightful and useful analysis.

Best,

Carlos

El sáb, 25 sept 2021 a las 5:06, Pallav Das (<[email protected]>) escribió: The "eco-anarchist" transition strategy relies on “prefiguring” the new social forms in the existing society. The most effective way to get people to see the sense and the merits of the new ways is to establish as many examples of them as possible here and now. This approach minimizes the chances of violent conflict; if we persuade large numbers to the alternative then radical change in structures might be brought about peacefully.

Friends,

A new article, "The path to a just and sustainable society" has been uploaded to the "Radical Ecological Democracy" website. In the second part of his discussion on “Eco-anarchism”, Ted Trainer lays out the core characteristics of a post consumer capitalist society, operating on the principles of “The Simpler Way”. Please share the article with your networks and join the discussion on REDlistserv. The author is copied here in case you would like to contact him directly.

https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainabl...

Best,

Pallav

-- To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to the whole list, select "reply to all". --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Radical Ecological Democracy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CAL3de_brtJZ6... .

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Hi Christine, Are you on the REDlistserv? If not, I could add you to it - you should upload this comment there so that a larger readership can read it and respond to it. Let me know. Thanks, Pallav On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 6:04 PM Christine Dann <[email protected]> wrote:

This is a really valuable discussion. My take on it is that there will be no one size that fits all. Ted Trainer assumes that local level communities can form and provide most of the necessities of life (including democratic governance) solely or mainly through voluntary effort. There are indeed excellent examples of such 'voluntarist' communities in existence (as there have been for over two centuries in most parts of the world) but so far they have never gone to such a horizontal scale as to make any significant dents on the market-state and capitalist industrialism.

Contrast the voluntarist efforts to create eco-villages and communities in heavily industrialised countries with the organised/professional efforts to 'eco' existing villages in rural India, as described by Sujit Sinha in his 'Living Utopias Videos' post to the PeDaGoG list on September 29. (Excerpt below).

Can we learn from both types of initiative?

My experiences of being involved with so-called 'pre-figurative' initiatives in Aotearoa New Zealand (alternative currency markets and services, Transition Towns, co-operative enterprises, community gardens) is that if they are to go to scale, and persist, volunteer effort is not enough. Organising and managing a successful market, week after week, is a lot of work, and while many people may be keen to volunteer on the day, most people in today's market-state societies are busy earning their livings (and raising children) and have limited time to volunteer. Especially when it requires skills they may not have, such as accounting for money, raising vegetables, facilitating meetings, etc. This means that voluntary work is too often done by people who have time to spare, rather than the best skill-set for the job. There can also be problems around accountability with volunteers who are free to make up what they think is required as they go along. Further, matching volunteers with the tasks to be done, and motivating them, is a skill all in itself - but it goes largely unrecognised and unrewarded. Hence lots of well-intentioned and well-designed projects can fall over or not reach full potential through lack of sufficiently skilled personnel committed to making them work - week after week and year after year.

So my big questions are

(1) how do the long-lived examples of just and sustainable communities actually operate? (2) are they really all based on voluntary effort alone? (3) if not, what methods do they have for recognising and recompensing the necessary skills of community building and maintenance, as related to the provision of necessities and the democratic governance of the community? (4) are these methods usually culturally specific, and/or are they (or some of them) transferable?

It's spring time here in NZ, and I just learned a Maori proverb: "Koanga tangata tahi, ngahuru puta noa" (At digging time just one person; at harvest time surrounded by others.) So it seems that even pre-industrial, pre-state societies grappled with the issue of who does what valuable work when. But they mostly 'solved' it - until the colonists arrived and destroyed their societies.

Nevertheless - in our efforts to build more just and sustainable societies, can we afford to neglect or ignore this important dimension of social reality?

Christine

"I want to tell the whole group about my recent experience of a workshop with village level activists and the kind of materials and pedagogy used and the next level challenges we will face. I think this might be of interest to the whole group and people might have experience and ideas to share.

Due to relaxations in lockdown I was able to conduct a two whole day , face to face , workshops with 60 people . About 2/3rd of participants were working at village level in 6 districts of the state of West Bengal , one district each of the states of Odisha and Jharkhand. So there were three language groups. 1/3rd were the urban staff of an NGO which works in these rural areas , primarily trying to create village discussion forums , to take forward many of the ideas of “alternatives to Industrialism”

In three sessions I circulated a one page note with 10-12 main points each on Amish ( USA) , Kibbutz( Israel) , and Mendha village ( India – maharashtra ) . These notes were in vernacular language. In groups of 6-8 persons they read the note, discussed , and came up with written comments and questions in about 20 minutes . As I collected the notes and started discussing , I showed them slides of still images of Amish ( not many available) and a 5 minute clipping from a film called “Raising the Barn” . For kibbutz also still images. And for Mendha a short 10 minute film. Each of these sessions went on for more than 2 hours with lots of animated discussions. The short note, the still photos , the short film were really helpful. We had planned to do Zapatistas but ran out of time.

These activists would like to tell these stories and initiate discussions at district, sub-district and at village forums which they are trying to create. But they need more “detailed stories” of such cases in the vernacular so that can handle all kinds of questions . In India Vikalp Sangam has already started writing detailed case studies in some state languages and also making audiovisuals. "

On 30/09/21 2:39 am, Carlos Tornel wrote:

Thanks Ariel and Tom!

As I was saying to Ted, I just want to clarify that I'm not advocating nor think that struggling to achieve state power is the way through - We have the experiences of Bolivia and Ecuador with indigenous or indigenous backed governments that tried to take control of the state only to find that the state operates in a global capitalist context which meant for many of them an increase forms of extraction and forms of violence against them and the very nature that they gave rights to. So I do agree with Ted that this is not the way forward, as well as with many Latin American thinkers who argue along the same lines (Holloway, Esteva, Dinerstein, etc). What I was thinking about was more in the lines of what can we still demand of the actually existing state or use the tools that already exist within it, to achieve some of the goals we want to achieve. I'm thinking particularly about some indigenous communities' struggles that are suing the state or demanding their rights be granted and respected. These are of course tools that were built by and "inside" the master's house, so I wouldn't say these will necessarily lead towards a more just or equal world, but they are nonetheless tools we can use to resist as we move forwards in the creation of a new world. So long story short, should we just ignore the state or can we 'use it', not to conquer state power, but to use the tools at our disposal keeping in mind that the ultimate goal should be societies that are rid of the state?

This might refer back to the point Ariel was making about what can be mediated with existing institutions. Although I'm not sure that I agree with what Tom was mentioning. Why assume that life-saving medicine of technological innovations such as solar panels of broadband need the State? Just thinking about this in 10 year anniversary of Occupy shows that people can organize food systems, health clinics, reflection and discussion groups all without the state, universities of hospitals. Of course this doesn't mean that we should get rid of the hospitals now, but we can surely work our way forward so that all these institutions that are not necessarily there for our well-being but to create and exacerbate our dependencies on them can be rethought or simply cese to be needed in the not so distant future?

Apologies for the long response but I do appreciate the chance to continue this debate and listening to other folk's opinions!

All the best,

C.

El mié, 29 sept 2021 a las 14:14, Tom Abeles (<[email protected]>) escribió:

...

I would be concerned, living in such a world, if I needed life-saving medical services from vaccines to heart surgery. Similarly, I would be concerned without universities, research and technology which has given us solar panels, broadband internet and similar which is imbedded in much of what we use on a daily basis. The Buddhist Gross Happiness Index ponders these issues.

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 7:20 PM Ariel Salleh <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Nice point Carlos. Considering how states are historically sex-gendered institutions may offer a way forward that mediates yours and Ted’s position …? Ariel

On 28 Sep 2021, at 6:58 am, Carlos Tornel <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi all and thanks Pallav for sharing this article!

I'm relatively new on some of the lists, but I thought I could share some thoughts after the reading.

I found the article quite useful for thinking about how we can start to build a post (growth, capitalism, extractive, etc.) society. I have faced similar questions and concerns when advocating for a convivial or a communal society in different spaces, such as what do we do with state power? With armies, the military, nuclear weapons, etc.? How do we move away from the Hobbian reality of power and the state? Several of the anarchist and degrowth proponentes (although not so many have looked seriously at this link until recently) have formulated proposals against this, i.e. try to reduce our dependence on the state and progressively move away from it. However this brings back the debate we've been having for some time now in Latin America, should we seek to take back the state or not? My own opinion is that we should, through several of the proposals presented in the article, such as food and energy sovereignty, we can progressively start to move away from the state, leading towards more convivial societies. However it does seem that the state will have to play a part in this transition, so perhaps we need to think of the transition from one society to another in different scales and with different agencies: I.e. What should we ask from the state? What can we do ourselves in local and communal terms and how can we continue to build networks of solidarity or communitarian entanglements at the regional, and even global level.

My thanks again Pallav for sharing and to Ted for a very insightful and useful analysis.

Best,

Carlos

El sáb, 25 sept 2021 a las 5:06, Pallav Das (<[email protected]>) escribió: The "eco-anarchist" transition strategy relies on “prefiguring” the new social forms in the existing society. The most effective way to get people to see the sense and the merits of the new ways is to establish as many examples of them as possible here and now. This approach minimizes the chances of violent conflict; if we persuade large numbers to the alternative then radical change in structures might be brought about peacefully.

Friends,

A new article, "The path to a just and sustainable society" has been uploaded to the "Radical Ecological Democracy" website. In the second part of his discussion on “Eco-anarchism”, Ted Trainer lays out the core characteristics of a post consumer capitalist society, operating on the principles of “The Simpler Way”. Please share the article with your networks and join the discussion on REDlistserv. The author is copied here in case you would like to contact him directly.

https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainabl...

Best,

Pallav

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Hi Christine, apologies for the long-delayed responsd to your qs. Some thoughts below your 4 qs ... these are re. local communities, mostly in rural areas. For urban situations, or for middle class movements, payments that are able to sustain the people who take up special tasks for alternative initiatives are much more common. ashish On 30/09/21 2:54 am, Christine Dann wrote:

This is a really valuable discussion. My take on it is that there will be no one size that fits all. Ted Trainer assumes that local level communities can form and provide most of the necessities of life (including democratic governance) solely or mainly through voluntary effort. There are indeed excellent examples of such 'voluntarist' communities in existence (as there have been for over two centuries in most parts of the world) but so far they have never gone to such a horizontal scale as to make any significant dents on the market-state and capitalist industrialism.

Contrast the voluntarist efforts to create eco-villages and communities in heavily industrialised countries with the organised/professional efforts to 'eco' existing villages in rural India, as described by Sujit Sinha in his 'Living Utopias Videos' post to the PeDaGoG list on September 29. (Excerpt below).

Can we learn from both types of initiative?

My experiences of being involved with so-called 'pre-figurative' initiatives in Aotearoa New Zealand (alternative currency markets and services, Transition Towns, co-operative enterprises, community gardens) is that if they are to go to scale, and persist, volunteer effort is not enough. Organising and managing a successful market, week after week, is a lot of work, and while many people may be keen to volunteer on the day, most people in today's market-state societies are busy earning their livings (and raising children) and have limited time to volunteer. Especially when it requires skills they may not have, such as accounting for money, raising vegetables, facilitating meetings, etc. This means that voluntary work is too often done by people who have time to spare, rather than the best skill-set for the job. There can also be problems around accountability with volunteers who are free to make up what they think is required as they go along. Further, matching volunteers with the tasks to be done, and motivating them, is a skill all in itself - but it goes largely unrecognised and unrewarded. Hence lots of well-intentioned and well-designed projects can fall over or not reach full potential through lack of sufficiently skilled personnel committed to making them work - week after week and year after year.

So my big questions are

(1) how do the long-lived examples of just and sustainable communities actually operate? I am not sure what you mean by 'actually operate'. If you mean processes that help run such communities, these are v. diverse, from institutions of governance and management to 'leadership' to teams for day to day management to others. I am giving here the link to a book of case studies from India that may help in better understanding of how some of the alternative initiatives work: https://kalpavriksh.org/publication/ecologies-of-hope-and-transformation-pos...

(2) are they really all based on voluntary effort alone? This depends on what you mean by 'voluntary', and what task/service is. Where it is about leading/holding resistance movements, or building community systems and infrastructure, it is often considered part of community life, and since everyone (including those involved) benefits, people don't necessarily think of this as a task that needs renumeration. Where it is acknowledged that special services/task take away from the ability to make a living, in many communities, there is some contribution by the rest of the community for services rendered by a member, such as grain, or help in managing other aspects of life that would suffer due to the time being given. This is traditionally sanctioned. Where such traditions have broken down, a certain monetary contribution may enter, either by the community or as provided by the state. Importantly though in these diverse situations, the spirit of voluntarism is important; the service (of leadership, or maintaining group dynamics, or managing accounts, etc) is not a job, it is a part of being in the community, often rotates, and is imbued wiht a sense of doing something for/with the community rather than because there is some pecuniary or material benefit from it. Having said all this, however, we have found that 'leadership' does often come with heavy personal cost, and while this is partly 'compensated' by significant respect and recognition by teh community (and outsiders), it may not be adequate when the personal loss is material, or emotional/psychological. (3) if not, what methods do they have for recognising and recompensing the necessary skills of community building and maintenance, as related to the provision of necessities and the democratic governance of the community? This is also v. diverse. Recognition can come in the form of higher social status, special position in community events, being nominated as representative to the 'outside' world, additional powers, etc. But both traditionally and in modern systems, there may also be mateiral /financial benefits (or 'compensation' ... which I find a strange term if the spirit of voluntarism prevails... its a rather capitalist way of looking at work done for one's community!). Community forest guards appointed over a long term (i.e. where the task is not rotated amongst all families), for instance, may get some honoraria. Many traditional systems of paying in foodgrains have broken down wtih commercialisation, and it is not easy to convince everyone in the community to restart with when a fresh initiative to conserve ecosystems, or manage the commons, starts... so then monetary payments may be resorted to. It is in the context of these rapidly transforming situations that your qs. becomes esp. important, and where, with all the caveats re. the state that the discussion below has brought in (esp. agreeing with Carlos), some support from govt may be sought, as long as it does not enable the state to dominate community decisions. (4) are these methods usually culturally specific, and/or are they (or some of them) transferable? What we feel is that it is not possible to 'replicate' these methods, but it is posisble to learn from them, adapt them to one's own circumstances (cultural, economic, ecological, political), and create in a sense modified or new methods. What is perhaps most important is to see what ethics/values/principles have worked (or not). For instance the princple of consensus decision-making at the radical democracy (face-to-face community) level (Mendha-Lekha, which Sujit cites, is famous for this), could be adopted, but how this will work in one's own collective may differ from where one has learnt it from. This can be called 'outscaling' instead of upscaling or replication.... and then scale can be achieved by linking these diverse local inititives with each other through networks and platforms of horizontal collaboration.

It's spring time here in NZ, and I just learned a Maori proverb: "Koanga tangata tahi, ngahuru puta noa" (At digging time just one person; at harvest time surrounded by others.) So it seems that even pre-industrial, pre-state societies grappled with the issue of who does what valuable work when. But they mostly 'solved' it - until the colonists arrived and destroyed their societies.

Nevertheless - in our efforts to build more just and sustainable societies, can we afford to neglect or ignore this important dimension of social reality?

Christine

"I want to tell the whole group about my recent experience of a workshop with village level activists and the kind of materials and pedagogy used and the next level challenges we will face. I think this might be of interest to the whole group and people might have experience and ideas to share.

Due to relaxations in lockdown I was able to conduct a two whole day , face to face , workshops with 60 people . About 2/3^rd of participants were working at village level in 6 districts of the state of West Bengal , one district each of the states of Odisha and Jharkhand. So there were three language groups. 1/3^rd were the urban staff of an NGO which works in these rural areas , primarily trying to create village discussion forums , to take forward many of the ideas of “alternatives to Industrialism”

In three sessions I circulated a one page note with 10-12 main points each on Amish ( USA) , Kibbutz( Israel) , and Mendha village ( India – maharashtra ) . These notes were in vernacular language. In groups of 6-8 persons they read the note, discussed , and came up with written comments and questions in about 20 minutes . As I collected the notes and started discussing , I showed them slides of still images of Amish ( not many available) and a 5 minute clipping from a film called “Raising the Barn” . For kibbutz also still images. And for Mendha a short 10 minute film. Each of these sessions went on for more than 2 hours with lots of animated discussions. The short note, the still photos , the short film were really helpful. We had planned to do Zapatistas but ran out of time.

These activists would like to tell these stories and initiate discussions at district, sub-district and at village forums which they are trying to create. But they need more “detailed stories” of such cases in the vernacular so that can handle all kinds of questions . In India Vikalp Sangam has already started writing detailed case studies in some state languages and also making audiovisuals.  "

On 30/09/21 2:39 am, Carlos Tornel wrote:

...

Thanks Ariel and Tom!

As I was saying to Ted, I just want to clarify that I'm not advocating nor think that struggling to achieve state power is the way through - We have the experiences of Bolivia and Ecuador with indigenous or indigenous backed governments that tried to take control of the state only to find that the state operates in a global capitalist context which meant for many of them an increase forms of extraction and forms of violence against them and the very nature that they gave rights to. So I do agree with Ted that this is not the way forward, as well as with many Latin American thinkers who argue along the same lines (Holloway, Esteva, Dinerstein, etc). What I was thinking about was more in the lines of what can we still demand of the actually existing state or use the tools that already exist within it, to achieve some of the goals we want to achieve. I'm thinking particularly about some indigenous communities' struggles that are suing the state or demanding their rights be granted and respected. These are of course tools that were built by and "inside" the master's house, so I wouldn't say these will necessarily lead towards a more just or equal world, but they are nonetheless tools we can use to resist as we move forwards in the creation of a new world. So long story short, should we just ignore the state or can we 'use it', not to conquer state power, but to use the tools at our disposal keeping in mind that the ultimate goal should be societies that are rid of the state?

This might refer back to the point Ariel was making about what can be mediated with existing institutions. Although I'm not sure that I agree with what Tom was mentioning. Why assume that life-saving medicine of technological innovations such as solar panels of broadband need the State? Just thinking about this in 10 year anniversary of Occupy shows that people can organize food systems, health clinics, reflection and discussion groups all without the state, universities of hospitals. Of course this doesn't mean that we should get rid of the hospitals now, but we can surely work our way forward so that all these institutions that are not necessarily there for our well-being but to create and exacerbate our dependencies on them can be rethought or simply cese to be needed in the not so distant future?

Apologies for the long response but I do appreciate the chance to continue  this debate and listening to other folk's opinions!

All the best,

C.

El mié, 29 sept 2021 a las 14:14, Tom Abeles (<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>) escribió:

I would be concerned, living in such a world, if I needed life-saving medical services from vaccines to heart surgery. Similarly, I would be concerned without universities, research and technology which has given us solar panels, broadband internet and similar which is imbedded in much of what we use on a daily basis. The Buddhist Gross Happiness Index ponders these issues.

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 7:20 PM Ariel Salleh <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

Nice point Carlos. Considering how states are historically sex-gendered institutions may offer a way forward that mediates yours and Ted’s position …? Ariel

On 28 Sep 2021, at 6:58 am, Carlos Tornel <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

Hi all and thanks Pallav for sharing this article!

I'm relatively new on some of the lists, but I thought I could share some thoughts after the reading.

I found the article quite useful for thinking about how we can start to build a post (growth, capitalism, extractive, etc.) society. I have faced similar questions and concerns when advocating for a convivial or a communal society in different spaces, such as what do we do with state power? With armies, the military, nuclear weapons, etc.? How do we move away from the Hobbian reality of power and the state? Several of the anarchist and degrowth proponentes (although not so many have looked seriously at this link until recently) have formulated proposals against this, i.e. try to reduce our dependence on the state and progressively move away from it. However this brings back the debate we've been having for some time now in Latin America, should we seek to take back the state or not? My own opinion is that we should, through several of the proposals presented in the article, such as food and energy sovereignty, we can progressively start to move away from the state, leading towards more convivial societies. However it does seem that the state will have to play a part in this transition, so perhaps we need to think of the transition from one society to another in different scales and with different agencies: I.e. What should we ask from the state? What can we do ourselves in local and communal terms and how can we continue to build networks of solidarity or communitarian entanglements at the regional, and even global level.

My thanks again Pallav for sharing and to Ted for a very insightful and useful analysis.

Best,

Carlos

El sáb, 25 sept 2021 a las 5:06, Pallav Das (<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>) escribió: The "eco-anarchist" transition strategy relies on “prefiguring” the new social forms in the existing society. The most effective way to get people to see the sense and the merits of the new ways is to establish as many examples of them as possible here and now. This approach minimizes the chances of violent conflict; if we persuade large numbers to the alternative then radical change in structures might be brought about peacefully.

Friends,

A new article, "The path to a just and sustainable society" has been uploaded to the "Radical Ecological Democracy" website. In the second part of his discussion on “Eco-anarchism”, Ted Trainer lays out the core characteristics of a post consumer capitalist society, operating on the principles of “The Simpler Way”. Please share the article with your networks and join the discussion on REDlistserv. The author is copied here in case you would like to contact him directly.

https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainabl... <https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainable-society/>

Best,

Pallav

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Hi, On 29/09/2021 14:14, Tom Abeles wrote:

I would be concerned, living in such a world, if I needed life-saving medical services from vaccines to heart surgery. Similarly, I would be concerned without universities, research and technology which has given us solar panels, broadband internet and similar which is imbedded in much of what we use on a daily basis. The Buddhist Gross Happiness Index ponders these issues.

You hit the nail right on the head here. Paradigms. It can be difficult to imagine an alternative reality (though sci-fi writers have been pushing the boundaries on that for a century or more) when you are living in a (highly) captive one. Additionally, if you can imagine different paradigms, think in systems terms, and hold multiple versions of reality in mind at once, for the purposes of analysis/evaluation, then you'd still have to choose which one you'd want to move towards... Each paradigm has its own pathways and -dependencies, of course. As Elizabeth Kolbert says in her critical review of climate market hi-tech - in "Under a White Sky" - this is "a book about people trying to solve problems created by people trying to solve problems” - or about a "vicious circle created by its own skewed logic and techno-dependency". The progress myth is one of the phenomena or memes at the heart of our trouble - and by trouble, in brief, I mean: / climate chaos; medical state of exception; and the collapse - in tandem - of global civilisation and the human immune system. Hence, vaccines and robotic heart surgery, for instance, are not simply _advances_, but also well understood as short-term plasters on festering wounds that result from the separation of nature/culture, elite/the rest, centres of control/disposable margins and so on. Plasters, that is, which trap dirt and obscure stratification and thus make the wounds deeper, while those swimming in the puss - that'd be us - systematically drown. Rupa and Patel's recent book is essential reading for movements/activists on these matters it seems to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXvIkj7grN8 So, I would be concerned if I were living in a world dependent on industrial hospitals, where the value of plant-based medicine and folk knowledge was abandoned entirely and buried alongside common sense. On these issues see also: https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2021/02/how-sustainable-is-high-tech-healt... Finally, on the progress myth - so fundamentally tied up with European/White Man philosophy, racist politics, and colonial extraction - it is worth paying attention to new currents in archaeology: “A profound consideration is underway of the nature of long-term human history. The major turning points we once identified – the invention of farming, the growth of cities, and technological change – were not events, but long term processes, the effects of which were unpredictable. At the heart of the older stories was the idea of progress from small, egalitarian human groups moving in pursuit of wild resources to large, sedentary, hierarchical polities based on mass production and consumption of food and artefacts. Many popular accounts still tell a story of progress. These stories ultimately derive from the 19th century, when the inventors of prehistory assumed progress as a central trait of human history, ranging societies from the primitive to the civilized. A tale told by the so-called civilized about the rise of civilization allowed a calm presumption that history had been creating their personalities and their lifestyle all along. (Gosden 2018: 1)” https://global.oup.com/academic/product/prehistory-a-very-short-introduction... Take your health into your own hand? Or as Cicero said, quoted without reference by Kierkegaard: Any person who reaches their 30th year of living should know themself well enough to be their own physician.... cheers/mp

Regarding my second question - is 'prefiguring' the intended pathway/theory-of-change? (sorry this was an unfamiliar term) Thanks, On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 20:52, Hari DK <[email protected]> wrote:

I've always had similar questions about anarchist visions. Even Noam Chomsky's book 'on Anarchism' seemed to skirt/avoid these questions for me.

-Who provisions 'public' goods that are too unprofitable for the corporations or communities to finance? Include public parks, fire brigade, etc. Also defense - unless there is a step change in human consciousness (tell me how/which pathway), will we ever stop having the need to protect ourselves? Would anarchism without a nationalized defense fund work if there were a big, unfriendly country on our borders? or does everyone in the world need to give up arms once and for all for anarchic futures to be realized?

-Also, as hinted in some of the comments by others - how is this future achieved? is it an organic emergent? or is it top down? capitalism in its original form is arguably an organic emergent of human settlement (farming societies stored seeds for the next harvest. of course I am not talking about degenerate, technologically amplified capitalism we might find ourselves trapped in.) My point of view: if this future is an organic emergent, it has a chance of realization. what are the 'drivers' for this systems change (i.e. the loops and archetypes which are driving this transition?).

Asking these out of a desire to understand more and factor into my own thinking,

Thanks,

On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 19:45, mp <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

On 29/09/2021 14:14, Tom Abeles wrote:

...

I would be concerned, living in such a world, if I needed life-saving medical services from vaccines to heart surgery. Similarly, I would be concerned without universities, research and technology which has given us solar panels, broadband internet and similar which is imbedded in much of what we use on a daily basis. The Buddhist Gross Happiness Index ponders these issues.

You hit the nail right on the head here.

Paradigms.

It can be difficult to imagine an alternative reality (though sci-fi writers have been pushing the boundaries on that for a century or more) when you are living in a (highly) captive one.

Additionally, if you can imagine different paradigms, think in systems terms, and hold multiple versions of reality in mind at once, for the purposes of analysis/evaluation, then you'd still have to choose which one you'd want to move towards...

Each paradigm has its own pathways and -dependencies, of course. As Elizabeth Kolbert says in her critical review of climate market hi-tech - in "Under a White Sky" - this is "a book about people trying to solve problems created by people trying to solve problems” - or about a "vicious circle created by its own skewed logic and techno-dependency".

The progress myth is one of the phenomena or memes at the heart of our trouble - and by trouble, in brief, I mean:

/ climate chaos; medical state of exception; and the collapse - in tandem - of global civilisation and the human immune system.

Hence, vaccines and robotic heart surgery, for instance, are not simply _advances_, but also well understood as short-term plasters on festering wounds that result from the separation of nature/culture, elite/the rest, centres of control/disposable margins and so on. Plasters, that is, which trap dirt and obscure stratification and thus make the wounds deeper, while those swimming in the puss - that'd be us - systematically drown.

Rupa and Patel's recent book is essential reading for movements/activists on these matters it seems to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXvIkj7grN8

So, I would be concerned if I were living in a world dependent on industrial hospitals, where the value of plant-based medicine and folk knowledge was abandoned entirely and buried alongside common sense. On these issues see also:

https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2021/02/how-sustainable-is-high-tech-healt...

Finally, on the progress myth - so fundamentally tied up with European/White Man philosophy, racist politics, and colonial extraction - it is worth paying attention to new currents in archaeology:

“A profound consideration is underway of the nature of long-term human history. The major turning points we once identified – the invention of farming, the growth of cities, and technological change – were not events, but long term processes, the effects of which were unpredictable. At the heart of the older stories was the idea of progress from small, egalitarian human groups moving in pursuit of wild resources to large, sedentary, hierarchical polities based on mass production and consumption of food and artefacts. Many popular accounts still tell a story of progress. These stories ultimately derive from the 19th century, when the inventors of prehistory assumed progress as a central trait of human history, ranging societies from the primitive to the civilized. A tale told by the so-called civilized about the rise of civilization allowed a calm presumption that history had been creating their personalities and their lifestyle all along. (Gosden 2018: 1)”

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/prehistory-a-very-short-introduction...

Take your health into your own hand? Or as Cicero said, quoted without reference by Kierkegaard:

Any person who reaches their 30th year of living should know themself well enough to be their own physician....

cheers/mp

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Well, thanks for the points and the pointers to reading mp, appreciate it. I do understand of course the points you make about "dirt" :) May I reframe again - something I have been thinking of. Perhaps not well-formed enough but here goes. I = PAT <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_%3D_PAT> There's an exponentially growing human population that (mostly) desires to become exponentially more affluent. The capitalists would merely say that they are the ones serving humanity in this aspiration, and they are as trapped as anyone (T being carbon intensive and difficult to pivot out of, for example). What I'm trying to say: capitalism wouldn't exist without human needs. Of people like you and me. If we could live without computers and Google and mobile phones and fast food, perhaps capitalism would have no place in the world? So who is responsible - the mass of us or the handful of evil geniuses 'enslaving' us? Just stress-testing some ideas here, not ideological. Thank you, On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 21:16, mp <[email protected]> wrote:

...the state we're in..

On 29/09/2021 16:22, Hari DK wrote:

...

-Also, as hinted in some of the comments by others - how is this future achieved? is it an organic emergent? or is it top down? capitalism in its original form is arguably an organic emergent of human settlement (farming societies stored seeds for the next harvest. of course I am not talking about degenerate, technologically amplified capitalism we might find ourselves trapped in.)

In a sense I guess everything is arguably emergent - but I'd prefer to look at the world differently here:

And say: It was always imposed, always an elite construction from the top down and little has changed in basic terms the last 6000 years: still turning on grains/ploughing, slaves, taxation, debt and extraction. See for instance James Scott's

https://read.dukeupress.edu/common-knowledge/article-abstract/27/1/111/16841...

In that light "Capitalism" is simply a reimposition, a re-application of same old tested and tried model of civilisation -- which collapses on average after 250 years when the soil is depleted - see David Montgomery:

The original study: "Dirt: The Erosion of Civilizations"https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/587916.Dirt

Or the more interesting, constructive, later response (with a summary of Dirt):

"Growing a Revolution: Bringing Our Soil Back to Life" / https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36236132-growing-a-revolution

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-- Hari Dilip Kumar *The Sustainability Problemsolver <http://www.haridk.me> | Initiative for Climate Action <https://actionclimate.org/>* *LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-dilip-kumar-4b566621/>* | *Skype *haridk.skype

Thank you for the critique Laurence, i appreciate it. To be honest I'll need to spend some time figuring our what is meant by "relative disparity between output expansion and toil reduction was due to consumer demand for what could then be produced..." Two questions to critics of capitalism in general.. -what of the 'heroic journey' of the individual entrepreneur, who assumes individual risk in order to bring a project to reality? I know several of them who are motivated by much, much more than the desire to make a huge profit. However, the desire of others to make a huge profit provides them the 'fuel' (risk capital) they need. What about social enterprise that scales through blended impact and risk capital? -a practical question - I live in India and am trained as an engineer. The other day I saw some beautiful projects based on data and artificial intelligence by some students who were trying to solve practical societal problems in healthcare and sustainable transportation. Should I tell them "don't work on these, they are based on the capitalist empire in which you have no agency'. What is the future of engineering, innovation and technology - which do have so many positive benefits after all? Practical questions since I am stuck in the capitalist world and don't have the luxury of shifting into an alternative (not right now). Thanks, On Thu, 30 Sept 2021 at 18:31, Davis, Laurence <[email protected]> wrote:

I don't think this argument holds up to critical scrutiny. In the early capitalist period, before the formation of labour markets completed the subordination of production to exchange, it might have been reasonable to claim that the relative disparity between output expansion and toil reduction was due to consumer demand for what could then be produced. In our own time, such a claim no longer makes sense because the economic structures of advanced capitalism deny to all but a self-interested few the power to decide what, how much, and under what circumstances to produce. Economic power in advanced capitalism is concentrated in enterprises so situated that they have a compelling reason to assess productive activity solely in terms of its value in increasing growth and profit. Treatment of the energy and time of labourers as other than a factor of production is simply not a realistic option in a fiercely competitive market system where the penalty for sustained profit loses is the possibility of insolvency.

Of course, as students of radical ecology have long pointed out, transformation of economic, political, and other institutions must be complemented by wider cultural-level changes.

Laurence

------------------------------ *From:* [email protected] < [email protected]> on behalf of Hari DK < [email protected]> *Sent:* 29 September 2021 17:01 *To:* mp <[email protected]> *Cc:* Tom Abeles <[email protected]>; Ariel Salleh <[email protected]>; Carlos Tornel <[email protected]>; Radcal Democracy < [email protected]>; Ted Trainer < [email protected]>; [email protected] < [email protected]> *Subject:* Re: [REDlistserve] A new article on the RED website - "The path to a just and sustainable society"

*[EXTERNAL] *This email was sent from outside of UCC. Well, thanks for the points and the pointers to reading mp, appreciate it. I do understand of course the points you make about "dirt" :)

May I reframe again - something I have been thinking of. Perhaps not well-formed enough but here goes.

I = PAT <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_%3D_PAT>

There's an exponentially growing human population that (mostly) desires to become exponentially more affluent. The capitalists would merely say that they are the ones serving humanity in this aspiration, and they are as trapped as anyone (T being carbon intensive and difficult to pivot out of, for example).

What I'm trying to say: capitalism wouldn't exist without human needs. Of people like you and me. If we could live without computers and Google and mobile phones and fast food, perhaps capitalism would have no place in the world?

So who is responsible - the mass of us or the handful of evil geniuses 'enslaving' us?

Just stress-testing some ideas here, not ideological.

Thank you,

On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 21:16, mp <[email protected]> wrote:

...the state we're in..

On 29/09/2021 16:22, Hari DK wrote:

...

-Also, as hinted in some of the comments by others - how is this future achieved? is it an organic emergent? or is it top down? capitalism in its original form is arguably an organic emergent of human settlement (farming societies stored seeds for the next harvest. of course I am not talking about degenerate, technologically amplified capitalism we might find ourselves trapped in.)

In a sense I guess everything is arguably emergent - but I'd prefer to look at the world differently here:

And say: It was always imposed, always an elite construction from the top down and little has changed in basic terms the last 6000 years: still turning on grains/ploughing, slaves, taxation, debt and extraction. See for instance James Scott's

https://read.dukeupress.edu/common-knowledge/article-abstract/27/1/111/16841...

In that light "Capitalism" is simply a reimposition, a re-application of same old tested and tried model of civilisation -- which collapses on average after 250 years when the soil is depleted - see David Montgomery:

The original study: "Dirt: The Erosion of Civilizations"https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/587916.Dirt

Or the more interesting, constructive, later response (with a summary of Dirt):

"Growing a Revolution: Bringing Our Soil Back to Life" / https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36236132-growing-a-revolution

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-- Hari Dilip Kumar

*The Sustainability Problemsolver <http://www.haridk.me> | Initiative for Climate Action <https://actionclimate.org/>* *LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-dilip-kumar-4b566621/>* | *Skype *haridk.skype

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-- Hari Dilip Kumar *The Sustainability Problemsolver <http://www.haridk.me> | Initiative for Climate Action <https://actionclimate.org/>* *LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-dilip-kumar-4b566621/>* | *Skype *haridk.skype

Thanks mp for the comments. I won't critique your critique, but will save for future reference, factoring in and course-corrections as someone embedded by choice in the capitalist world with the intent to improve whatever I can leveraging its 'logic' as you put it. All I'd like to say is that - people are changing, consciousness is changing. What might be the next emergent of a consumer-capitalist world where everyone is empathetic and conscious? I'd say the question is open enough for me to stay optimistic.. Fading into background mode.. Cheers :) On Fri, 1 Oct 2021 at 20:55, mp <[email protected]> wrote:

On 30/09/2021 14:25, Hari DK wrote:

...

Two questions to critics of capitalism in general..

-what of the 'heroic journey' of the individual entrepreneur, who assumes individual risk in order to bring a project to reality? I know several of them who are motivated by much, much more than the desire to make a huge profit. However, the desire of others to make a huge profit provides them the 'fuel' (risk capital) they need. What about social enterprise that scales through blended impact and risk capital?

Unexpected winners can always be found, even in a game that is rigged. The American Dream does not always turn into a nightmare and there are even trailer parks filled with hopeful souls, who crashed once or twice before, but who incredulously (to me) maintain their beliefs in that game.

Two texts come to mind here (observing a 50/50% gender split):

- Leonard Cohen's Everybody Knows:

Everybody knows that the dice are loaded Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed Everybody knows the war is over Everybody knows the good guys lost Everybody knows the fight was fixed The poor stay poor, the rich get rich That's how it goes Everybody knows

- and Katharina Pistor's excellent analysis/review: 'The Code of Capital: How the Law Creates Wealth and Inequality'.

I don't suppose it should be necessary to point to critiques of microfinancing and all that sort of developmentalist stuff?

Whichever way - however you twist and turn it - it is a system, a game play, where benefits come at the cost and pain of someone else. It is that cost/pain, I believe, which one can try to minimise in the course of one's life and in the process of realising one's dreams. There is no win/win, so one needs to minimise one's winning.

There are many pathways - of course - such as avoiding supermarket food, not driving a big car around for fun, not buying new clothes, building ecovillages, whatever ideas people come up with. Keeping in mind that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

...

-a practical question - I live in India and am trained as an engineer. The other day I saw some beautiful projects based on data and artificial intelligence by some students who were trying to solve practical societal problems in healthcare and sustainable transportation. Should I tell them "don't work on these, they are based on the capitalist empire in which you have no agency'. What is the future of engineering, innovation and technology - which do have so many positive benefits after all?

Those benefits - which are not easily disentangled from the costs and pain upon which they rest - are not always clear-cut. I would tell them that. I would analyse and move far beyond the illusion that cyberspace/AI are immaterial. They are not. They are extremely material with extreme costs.

Perhaps consider Roberto Verzola's work 'Towards a Political Economy of Information' which begins with this telling little vignette:

“We are all familiar with the typical story of an isolated village at the edge of the forest. Some villagers have to go to town to buy a few necessities, and maybe to stock the village store. Others need to go to sell some products for cash. Villagers start to feel that the foot path to town is insufficient for their needs.

Village activists may even pursue the issue and organize the people to demand a better road. Eventually, public opinion is swayed, and a petition is submitted. The government, the villagers are pleasantly surprised, is amenable to the idea. Road-building eventually starts.

As completion date nears, the village organizes a welcome party for the first vehicle that is coming in. A few days later, the village wakes up to the rumble of engines and smell of diesel exhaust. The vehicles have come. And they are logging trucks, carrying men with chain saws.” -

https://rverzola.wordpress.com/2008/01/26/towards-a-political-economy-of-inf...

The IT industry is a disaster for people and planet. When I click send in a minute I have engaged a system that is worse than the aviation industry. What's the gain, exactly? Sounds like you take them as read, those benefits. I would argue that they require critical evaluation on a case-by-case basis.

Whichever way we move forward, at this stage I reckon the most important thing is to create and maintain spaces of conviviality where the spirit of community and love can endure. The collapse is coming sooner than later, probably, and eventually all we will have left - once AI and the technosphere are reduced to value-less memories that are better forgotten - is dreams and ideas of freedom. And even those are under severe attack.

mp

-- Hari Dilip Kumar *The Sustainability Problemsolver <http://www.haridk.me> | Initiative for Climate Action <https://actionclimate.org/>* *LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-dilip-kumar-4b566621/>* | *Skype *haridk.skype

Hi, Regarding the original article by Ted Trainer... I'd love to live in one of those eco-communes with the happy backyard chickens and 2 days of work.. :) always more questions :P -would the process of creating communes scale quickly enough (via good examples and prefiguration) to mitigate the climate crisis? or is that a secondary objective? -if the communes don't scale fast enough to avert the climate crisis, then wouldn't we necessarily need to solve within the system of consumer capitalism (through climate-tech innovation, initiatives like CDP <https://www.cdp.net/en> etc). -is this a model only for the rich countries? what's happening in the poor ones? -I'm very interested in how the devolution of consumer capitalist value chains might occur to the local business models. Best, On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 22:55, David Barkin <[email protected]> wrote:

Some time ago I argued on this RED Listserve that there are hundreds of communities already involved in constructing their own societies on the margins of the capitalist states of which they are a part. (I enclose a published version of that contribution for those who dont recall our shorter piece, so nicely mentored by Dev) These groups are forming alliances and networks on a global scale (I.e., consider the example of the Territories of Life consortium whose participating members occupy as much as one-quarter of the planet's land area; or the efforts of the Global Tapestry of Alternatives, whose origins are in India, but now extend widely across the globe). Most of these groups are explicitly confronting inherited challenges, such as women's participation and significance in governance and socio-cultural definition, as well as the need to reshape their food and production systems while caring for their natural environments, while assuming control of their territories.

Here in Mexico, of course, is the iconic example of the Zapatistas, whose ranks now number perhaps one-half million people from several different ethnic groups of Mayan origin. Their present foray into Europe to explore the paths to constructing international solidarity is a notable complement to the work that they are doing within Mexico with their allies in the National Indigeous Congress, with its 25 million members. Other sizable groups with less international visibility include the Tosepan Cooperative founded in 1977 and with almost 200,000 members at present. Resistance struggles against capitalist mega projects are also mobilizing uncounted numbers of communities who are now realizing the importance of moving beyond protest to forge their own models of societies moving forward.

Abrazos and Saludos from Mexico ---

On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 10:46 AM mp <[email protected]> wrote:

...

...the state we're in..

On 29/09/2021 16:22, Hari DK wrote:

...

-Also, as hinted in some of the comments by others - how is this future achieved? is it an organic emergent? or is it top down? capitalism in its original form is arguably an organic emergent of human settlement (farming societies stored seeds for the next harvest. of course I am not talking about degenerate, technologically amplified capitalism we might find ourselves trapped in.)

In a sense I guess everything is arguably emergent - but I'd prefer to look at the world differently here:

And say: It was always imposed, always an elite construction from the top down and little has changed in basic terms the last 6000 years: still turning on grains/ploughing, slaves, taxation, debt and extraction. See for instance James Scott's

https://read.dukeupress.edu/common-knowledge/article-abstract/27/1/111/16841...

In that light "Capitalism" is simply a reimposition, a re-application of same old tested and tried model of civilisation -- which collapses on average after 250 years when the soil is depleted - see David Montgomery:

The original study: "Dirt: The Erosion of Civilizations"https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/587916.Dirt

Or the more interesting, constructive, later response (with a summary of Dirt):

"Growing a Revolution: Bringing Our Soil Back to Life" / https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36236132-growing-a-revolution

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-- David Barkin Mexico

-- Hari Dilip Kumar *The Sustainability Problemsolver <http://www.haridk.me> | Initiative for Climate Action <https://actionclimate.org/>* *LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-dilip-kumar-4b566621/>* | *Skype *haridk.skype

Thanks so much to Mofwoofoo for sharing this. Not only an excellent model of autonomous governance - but highlights the role of patriarchal attitudes behind our political crises. It would be great if this list could grow a conversation to deepen understandings about this. At the moment feminist questions tend to be ‘objectified’ and organised separately in seminars and such. Ariel Ariel Salleh writer/activist Sydney Founding Member Global Univ. for Sustainability, HK Visiting Professor Nelson Mandela University, SA Email: [email protected] Website: www.arielsalleh.info On 30 Sep 2021, at 7:06 am, Mofwoofoo <[email protected]> wrote: I am writing as a long time radical anarchist activist "on the ground". I am not a scholar, but I have read a lot over 55 years. While I view the article worthwhile, it is nothing new at all. Anarchist literature and scholarship goes back to the 1860's when these same ideas were expressed. Anarchists have seen through the problem of hierarchies in gov't. and in general. I have submitted the 7 minute animation that I made in 2020 which explains a lot about organizing in a horizontal fashion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wywMhg604W8&t=5s. And how it might be the only way to eliminate once and for all corruption in governments. Citizen participation a la transition towns initiatives, localization, collectivism, decentralization, deconsummerism, self-reliance, economies that promote the good of the whole, cooperation, respect for the environment, etc. are ideas whirling around throughout the internet and the world. And as I am sure it is clear to everyone in this group, that the current system of capitalism is the perfect recipe for suiciding the human race. Meanwhile, as capitalism is collapsing or is being collapsed, there seems to be a rush to assert authoritarianism as soon as possible. And clearly the vaccine mandate and the pcr tests are ways to do this. But since the vaccine mandates will not go away no matter how hard the pushback is, they seem to have plan b ready to go: world-wide food shortages which would result in world-wide food riots and chaos, which will justify martial law and state of emergency declarations, which at least in the USA would empower FEMA to overstep the Constitution and do whatever they want due to the executive orders that give them total power. To avoid this from happening, people need to check on where their area's food sources are coming from and if they will be available or not. And in this way, using google or duck, duck, go one can ascertain what really is happening and what is going to happen in these regards. And if food shortages are indeed imminent, alert the citizenry to prepare by storing up on rice, beans, lentils, grains, tins, and storing food in preserves and salt for perhaps 6 months and setting up programs for those who don't have a few hundred dollars to spend to be able to be prepared as well. Finally, I am the founder of a mostly latino, artist, eco-community in Ecuador (chambalabamba.org, under construction) since 2012, and believe me, this is not the solution for the world. It takes years to get it going, most communities fail for lack of funds or cohesion, it is not for everybody, and it is a false hope for those who believe that this is the way, imho. On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 2:15 PM Hari DK <[email protected]> wrote: Hi, Regarding the original article by Ted Trainer... I'd love to live in one of those eco-communes with the happy backyard chickens and 2 days of work.. :) always more questions :P -would the process of creating communes scale quickly enough (via good examples and prefiguration) to mitigate the climate crisis? or is that a secondary objective? -if the communes don't scale fast enough to avert the climate crisis, then wouldn't we necessarily need to solve within the system of consumer capitalism (through climate-tech innovation, initiatives like CDP etc). -is this a model only for the rich countries? what's happening in the poor ones? -I'm very interested in how the devolution of consumer capitalist value chains might occur to the local business models. Best, On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 22:55, David Barkin <[email protected]> wrote: Some time ago I argued on this RED Listserve that there are hundreds of communities already involved in constructing their own societies on the margins of the capitalist states of which they are a part. (I enclose a published version of that contribution for those who dont recall our shorter piece, so nicely mentored by Dev) These groups are forming alliances and networks on a global scale (I.e., consider the example of the Territories of Life consortium whose participating members occupy as much as one-quarter of the planet's land area; or the efforts of the Global Tapestry of Alternatives, whose origins are in India, but now extend widely across the globe). Most of these groups are explicitly confronting inherited challenges, such as women's participation and significance in governance and socio-cultural definition, as well as the need to reshape their food and production systems while caring for their natural environments, while assuming control of their territories. Here in Mexico, of course, is the iconic example of the Zapatistas, whose ranks now number perhaps one-half million people from several different ethnic groups of Mayan origin. Their present foray into Europe to explore the paths to constructing international solidarity is a notable complement to the work that they are doing within Mexico with their allies in the National Indigeous Congress, with its 25 million members. Other sizable groups with less international visibility include the Tosepan Cooperative founded in 1977 and with almost 200,000 members at present. Resistance struggles against capitalist mega projects are also mobilizing uncounted numbers of communities who are now realizing the importance of moving beyond protest to forge their own models of societies moving forward. Abrazos and Saludos from Mexico --- On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 10:46 AM mp <[email protected]> wrote: ...the state we're in.. On 29/09/2021 16:22, Hari DK wrote:

-Also, as hinted in some of the comments by others - how is this future achieved? is it an organic emergent? or is it top down? capitalism in its original form is arguably an organic emergent of human settlement (farming societies stored seeds for the next harvest. of course I am not talking about degenerate, technologically amplified capitalism we might find ourselves trapped in.)

In a sense I guess everything is arguably emergent - but I'd prefer to look at the world differently here: And say: It was always imposed, always an elite construction from the top down and little has changed in basic terms the last 6000 years: still turning on grains/ploughing, slaves, taxation, debt and extraction. See for instance James Scott's https://read.dukeupress.edu/common-knowledge/article-abstract/27/1/111/16841... In that light "Capitalism" is simply a reimposition, a re-application of same old tested and tried model of civilisation -- which collapses on average after 250 years when the soil is depleted - see David Montgomery: The original study: "Dirt: The Erosion of Civilizations"https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/587916.Dirt Or the more interesting, constructive, later response (with a summary of Dirt): "Growing a Revolution: Bringing Our Soil Back to Life" / https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36236132-growing-a-revolution -- To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to the whole list, select "reply to all". --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Radical Ecological Democracy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/1dcca51f-01d1.... -- David Barkin Mexico -- Hari Dilip Kumar The Sustainability Problemsolver | Initiative for Climate Action LinkedIn | Skype haridk.skype -- To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to the whole list, select "reply to all". --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Radical Ecological Democracy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CA%2BbrHUZ_et....

I agree, Tom, that we wouldn't want to do without the best of modern research and technology. I would only hasten to clarify that that is NOT Ted's position. Rather, he wants to do away with the 90% or so of production that we don't really need to live well, that enriches capitalists but does not really meet essential needs or truly improve our lives, and to radically reduce consumption in the affluent countries. And this is precisely so that we can collectively afford, resource-wise, to preserve the most useful and essential things like medical care, and so that the resources that capitalist profiteers and gluttonous Western consumers are squandering can be shared equitably with the majority world so that all may live at a sustainable and frugal but decent standard of living. Tom mentioned broadband Internet, and here we are, using that to hold this conversation. I'm glad that tech is here, and those of us whose work is information-intensive can certainly access a lot of information more efficiently with it. I do remember life before it, though, and it honestly wasn't that bad. In some ways I think it was better. I think a happy median, if we re-organize society to live in the kinds of communities of the Simpler Way vision that Ted advocates, might be for the shared space in each community to have a few shared computers, like a library. Perhaps a few whose occupations require it might possess a dedicated computer for themselves, though if we want to transition to a society where manual and intellectual labor is more equitably shared, as I think we must do if we are to seek justice and avoid fostering a dominant managerial class, perhaps the shared computer model, combined with democratic allocation of the workload and associated computer access time, might be a solution that massively reduces the total number of machines and devices that are needed, with all of their life cycle environmental and other costs, while still supplying communities with all of the equipment that is really needed to supply the computer access time that is efficiently allocated to achieve collective production goals in their democratic economic plans. Eliminating planned obsolescence, and building each machine to last, would also be crucial, and this would be something a socially planned economy would have incentive to do, unlike the current system whose goal is to maximize corporate profits. There is a question of how much of a good thing we need, and I think the massive expansion of infrastructure associated with the rollout of 5G that is underway is disastrous for the planet, and should be urgently resisted. It's not really an efficient use of scarce resources and sinks to use Internet-controlled machines to blow our noses when we can just grab a tissue ourselves. That is hopefully a slight exaggeration of what they have in store for us, but the logic of capital is to get us to think we need stuff analogous to that if it will increase corporate sales. An excellent treatment of 5G and related issues is Jorge Riechmann's <https://www.15-15-15.org/webzine/2020/09/07/decrecer-desdigitalizar-quince-tesis/>, in Spanish, though there are hopefully comparable materials in English. (It has nothing to do with the wild conspiracy theories that are out there about this topic, but takes into account real-world analysis of ecological footprints, resource limits, and the evidence for a pending collapse rather than ongoing expansion of industrial civilization as we know it.) Ted's views and mine overlap considerably, and within that overlap lie what I think are some of the very most important tasks that we can be doing. His emphasis is on affluent Westerners withdrawing from consumerism and building local materially simple substantially egalitarian economies, which I think is an essential pillar of the path we need to travel. I would add to that, perhaps a bit more explicitly and prominently than he does (though it is not absent from his viewpoint), another complementary emphasis, as a twin pillar, on active practical solidarity by people in the minority affluent countries and communities with the struggles of great masses of already-simply-living peoples throughout the majority world to recover and defend Indigenous territories, achieve equitable redistributive land reform and supports for sustainable peasant producers facilitating substantial de-urbanization and re-population of countrysides, and stop destructive megaprojects. Ted talks of starving capitalism by withdrawing from consumerism, but it is also essential to support the numerous environmental struggles throughout the world (see the Environmental Justice Atlas <https://ejatlas.org/>) which, if successful, will starve capitalism of the unbridled resource extraction that it requires to reproduce its monstrous self. This solidarity work involves politically pressuring and confronting, by all ethical and effective means, capitalist governments that are aiding and abetting corporate violence and destruction <https://www.15-15-15.org/webzine/2020/12/06/springer-publishing-succumbs-to-legal-bullying-and-why-this-matters-in-the-struggle-for-a-sustainable-and-just-world/> throughout the world Though there is an important truth in it, I'm not entirely happy with the language that Ted sometimes uses of ignoring capitalism to death, or of rallying rebels to the community garden rather than to the barricades. I think the path ahead will include plenty of both. Currently, life is structured by the rule of capital in such a way that people HAVE to consume more than is sustainable, for example, in many places they need a car to get to work. And most people cannot afford to buy land on which to sustainably produce for their direct consumption, but have to earn cash in the unsustainable economy to pay rent to a landlord, etc. Middle class people who can afford to buy land, because they either worked in the unsustainable economy for 30 years or were given money by someone who did, can do valuable and instructive experiments on purchased land that can help educate the public. But even if widespread consciousness arises of the need to return to sustainable ways of individual and communal self-provisioning within a land base that we care for and that sustains us, it won't happen on a large scale without land redistribution, and I don't see that being achieved by ignoring the capitalist banks and land owning interests. It will require great struggle, of the barricade variety. Related to the land issue, as a recent article <https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/14/15/4508/htm> from Megan Seibert and William Rees points out, life after the age of cheap and abundant energy will likely be a lot like life before it. And if there is anything we should learn from the millennia of recorded history before the industrial age, it is that environmentally destructive and socially oppressive ruling class elites do not need modern consumer capitalism to be in place in order to maintain their power, lay waste to the environment, and control people and appropriate the value of their labor power, leaving them with barely enough to survive. As commodity-based capitalism implodes due to its environmental destruction and exhaustion of resources, it seems likely to me that the default successor system, in the absence of extremely concerted and energetic popular struggle, will be a morphing of the current capitalist class rule into arrangements that resemble ancient imperial command economies. We may eventually be able to ignore capitalists but we will not be able to ignore their heirs who will continue to try to violently control lands and dominate and enslave and exploit us, using their privileged access to the declining resources that remain to do so. If ancient aristocracies and empires could be built by the simple low-tech, low-energy process of controlling access to granaries that could feed soldiers and slaves, the post-capitalist elites will have more than that at their disposal as we travel down the slope of energy availability. What I'm hoping will be different from the past is that our struggles to defeat capitalism and prevent the rise of a successor form of class domination will be starting from a point, unique in history, when it is possible for there to be global concerted action by Indigenous peoples, peasants, and the popular classes, simultaneously and everywhere, against hierarchical and exploitative class rule. Marxists have thought that the factor that would make popular struggles enduringly succeed today though they failed, or only achieved partial or temporary victories in the past, is the emergence of industrialism and the proletariat. I think that is a mistake. I think that the limiting factors in the past were, generally speaking, not technological but relational, though I do think that the technology of global communications (though we need to scale it down) could make a decisive difference. The primary unique hopeful factor of our time, I think, is the fact that, while capitalist domination is global, so is resistance to it. When thinking of the Paris Commune, or the Huasteca peasant rebellions in Mexico in the 19th C., the river irrigation sharing systems of what is now called the American Southwest, or any number of other similar popular struggles or cooperative models of the past, sooner or later, after the people had won control of territories or established cooperative arrangements and a degree of autonomy for some time, the ruling elites were always able to muster superior forces from outside to come and annihilate the rebels. Struggles in the future will be no picnic, but what is different about today is that there is now no more "outside" from which to invade, which means that, though victories will be hard to achieve, once enough victories are won, it may be possible to consolidate them over time, so that victories come to outnumber defeats rather than the reverse, popular power grows more enduringly, and the power of elites declines rather than ascends. That is to say, while it will be essential and not easy to maintain sufficient unified vision and resolve, we may be at a point in a cycle of thousands of years of history where we are about to get over a hump, after which further progress may be achieved along a somewhat easier downhill rather than uphill path. Time is of the essence if we are to get to that point while still having much of a world left that can be restored to support a decent future for our progeny and their nonhuman neighbors in the web of life. I have not finished reading all the posts in this thread, but I love how the contributions I have read so far give reminders of crucial elements and dimensions that we need to continually keep in mind and attend to. Besides Ted's worthwhile article, Ariel Salleh called attention to the patriarchal dimension of our history and struggles and, while understandings of that are not sufficiently woven through my thinking and practice, since male voices have dominated discussions and this dimension isn't focused on enough, I'm hoping we can all put forth requisite efforts and make collective progress to correct these deficiencies. David Barkin mentioned organizations and movements that relate to matters at the heart of my personal involvements and concerns and that I will be eager to follow up on and research further. I'm very glad this forum and community exists. Steven Johnson On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 9:15 AM Tom Abeles <[email protected]> wrote:

I would be concerned, living in such a world, if I needed life-saving medical services from vaccines to heart surgery. Similarly, I would be concerned without universities, research and technology which has given us solar panels, broadband internet and similar which is imbedded in much of what we use on a daily basis. The Buddhist Gross Happiness Index ponders these issues.

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 7:20 PM Ariel Salleh <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Nice point Carlos. Considering how states are historically sex-gendered institutions may offer a way forward that mediates yours and Ted’s position …? Ariel

On 28 Sep 2021, at 6:58 am, Carlos Tornel <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi all and thanks Pallav for sharing this article!

I'm relatively new on some of the lists, but I thought I could share some thoughts after the reading.

I found the article quite useful for thinking about how we can start to build a post (growth, capitalism, extractive, etc.) society. I have faced similar questions and concerns when advocating for a convivial or a communal society in different spaces, such as what do we do with state power? With armies, the military, nuclear weapons, etc.? How do we move away from the Hobbian reality of power and the state? Several of the anarchist and degrowth proponentes (although not so many have looked seriously at this link until recently) have formulated proposals against this, i.e. try to reduce our dependence on the state and progressively move away from it. However this brings back the debate we've been having for some time now in Latin America, should we seek to take back the state or not? My own opinion is that we should, through several of the proposals presented in the article, such as food and energy sovereignty, we can progressively start to move away from the state, leading towards more convivial societies. However it does seem that the state will have to play a part in this transition, so perhaps we need to think of the transition from one society to another in different scales and with different agencies: I.e. What should we ask from the state? What can we do ourselves in local and communal terms and how can we continue to build networks of solidarity or communitarian entanglements at the regional, and even global level.

My thanks again Pallav for sharing and to Ted for a very insightful and useful analysis.

Best,

Carlos

El sáb, 25 sept 2021 a las 5:06, Pallav Das (<[email protected]>) escribió: The "eco-anarchist" transition strategy relies on “prefiguring” the new social forms in the existing society. The most effective way to get people to see the sense and the merits of the new ways is to establish as many examples of them as possible here and now. This approach minimizes the chances of violent conflict; if we persuade large numbers to the alternative then radical change in structures might be brought about peacefully.

Friends,

A new article, "The path to a just and sustainable society" has been uploaded to the "Radical Ecological Democracy" website. In the second part of his discussion on “Eco-anarchism”, Ted Trainer lays out the core characteristics of a post consumer capitalist society, operating on the principles of “The Simpler Way”. Please share the article with your networks and join the discussion on REDlistserv. The author is copied here in case you would like to contact him directly.

https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/the-path-to-a-just-and-sustainabl...

Best,

Pallav

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