I don't think this argument holds up to critical scrutiny. In the early capitalist period, before the formation of labour markets completed the subordination of production to exchange, it might have been reasonable to claim that the relative disparity between output expansion and toil reduction was due to consumer demand for what could then be produced. In our own time, such a claim no longer makes sense because the economic structures of advanced capitalism deny to all but a self-interested few the power to decide what, how much, and under what circumstances to produce. Economic power in advanced capitalism is concentrated in enterprises so situated that they have a compelling reason to assess productive activity solely in terms of its value in increasing growth and profit. Treatment of the energy and time of labourers as other than a factor of production is simply not a realistic option in a fiercely competitive market system where the penalty for sustained profit loses is the possibility of insolvency. Of course, as students of radical ecology have long pointed out, transformation of economic, political, and other institutions must be complemented by wider cultural-level changes. Laurence ________________________________ From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Hari DK <[email protected]> Sent: 29 September 2021 17:01 To: mp <[email protected]> Cc: Tom Abeles <[email protected]>; Ariel Salleh <[email protected]>; Carlos Tornel <[email protected]>; Radcal Democracy <[email protected]>; Ted Trainer <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [REDlistserve] A new article on the RED website - "The path to a just and sustainable society" [EXTERNAL] This email was sent from outside of UCC. Well, thanks for the points and the pointers to reading mp, appreciate it. I do understand of course the points you make about "dirt" :) May I reframe again - something I have been thinking of. Perhaps not well-formed enough but here goes. I = PAT<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_%3D_PAT> There's an exponentially growing human population that (mostly) desires to become exponentially more affluent. The capitalists would merely say that they are the ones serving humanity in this aspiration, and they are as trapped as anyone (T being carbon intensive and difficult to pivot out of, for example). What I'm trying to say: capitalism wouldn't exist without human needs. Of people like you and me. If we could live without computers and Google and mobile phones and fast food, perhaps capitalism would have no place in the world? So who is responsible - the mass of us or the handful of evil geniuses 'enslaving' us? Just stress-testing some ideas here, not ideological. Thank you, On Wed, 29 Sept 2021 at 21:16, mp <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: ...the state we're in.. On 29/09/2021 16:22, Hari DK wrote:
-Also, as hinted in some of the comments by others - how is this future achieved? is it an organic emergent? or is it top down? capitalism in its original form is arguably an organic emergent of human settlement (farming societies stored seeds for the next harvest. of course I am not talking about degenerate, technologically amplified capitalism we might find ourselves trapped in.)
In a sense I guess everything is arguably emergent - but I'd prefer to look at the world differently here: And say: It was always imposed, always an elite construction from the top down and little has changed in basic terms the last 6000 years: still turning on grains/ploughing, slaves, taxation, debt and extraction. See for instance James Scott's https://read.dukeupress.edu/common-knowledge/article-abstract/27/1/111/16841... In that light "Capitalism" is simply a reimposition, a re-application of same old tested and tried model of civilisation -- which collapses on average after 250 years when the soil is depleted - see David Montgomery: The original study: "Dirt: The Erosion of Civilizations"https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/587916.Dirt Or the more interesting, constructive, later response (with a summary of Dirt): "Growing a Revolution: Bringing Our Soil Back to Life" / https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36236132-growing-a-revolution -- To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to the whole list, select "reply to all". --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Radical Ecological Democracy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]<mailto:radical_ecological_democracy%[email protected]>. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/1dcca51f-01d1.... -- Hari Dilip Kumar The Sustainability Problemsolver<http://www.haridk.me> | Initiative for Climate Action<https://actionclimate.org/> LinkedIn<https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-dilip-kumar-4b566621/> | Skype haridk.skype -- To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to the whole list, select "reply to all". --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Radical Ecological Democracy" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CA%2BbrHUbwYYFEu7PUaE%2BfyY3yNh90tYEtwh2qYioZ6t_t%2BLWB6g%40mail.gmail.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CA%2BbrHUbwYYFEu7PUaE%2BfyY3yNh90tYEtwh2qYioZ6t_t%2BLWB6g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.