[Solar-general] Fwd: [wg] Re: [Fsg] The two lists

Jue Mar 30 13:03:09 CEST 2006

----------  Mensaje reenviado  ----------

Subject: [wg] Re: [Fsg] The two lists
Date: Jueves 30 Marzo 2006 13:15
From: David Sugar <dyfet en hipatia.info>
To: wg en listas.hipatia.info, fsg en listas.hipatia.info
Cc: Fsg en libre.org

I in fact did not comment on what you may have said to Stefano in regard
to why the new list was created by Niibe or was made moderated.  Rather
I commented only on what Stefano had said was the reason he was given by
you for his later banishment from the list.  So in fact, you have
addressed and commented on something I did not in fact even say.
However, I agree and recognize it is possible, having gone through two
parties, that what I said may be different to what you said to Stefano
in regard to his removal.

My concern was with Stefano's banishment, and the many cynical and
contradictory stories claimed by some afterward as to why this was done.
Many of these stories were posted by those people directly, and so only
they can say someone else made them write it, rather than that they were
misquoted.  I also do not believe Stefano has received a full answer for
his banishment directly, and certainly did not receive it at the time,
now weeks before.  This to me represents the very problem of when you go
down the very slippery slope of censorship and finally banishment; it's
always claimed for "nessisary" reasons at the start, with the greatest
of "good" intentions, and yet so very often ends in the harming of
innocents.  This is not how FS people should behave, it is not part of
our values.

Equally appalling to me is this idea that any criticism of the list was
grounds for removal.  If this is true, then please remove me.  I will
have nothing to do with such a list.  But then, it is worth pointing
out that many other people criticized the list moderation as in effect
censorship much more strongly prior to Stefano's removal, and yet he
remains the only one removed.  Selective enforcement is far to often
also a tool of selective punishment; for those of us who have dealt with
civil and human rights, we often encounter this as a tool to stifle
dissent through fear.  I do not say this was done, only that to me,
based on my own experiances, that is how I perceive such actions.

David

Richard Stallman wrote:
> The fsg en libre.org mailing list, which Pablo Machón created at the FSF's
> request, is the FSF's replacement for the free-software-group list,
> which was created by Niibe Yutaka of the Free Software Initiative
> Japan for planning our activities.  Niibe's list was unable to serve
> its purpose, because certain people used it to pursue a personal
> grudge against various FSF leaders, posting unjust criticism of
> Federico Heinz, Georg Greve and others.
>
> I suggested that we should moderate the list to prevent it from being
> disrupted by personal grudge attacks.  Niibe's list software could not
> do this, so this change required moving the list as well.  Pablo set
> up the replacement list.
>
> I take full responsibility for the decision to moderate the list, but
> I do not apologize for it.  This control is the control we need in
> order to get work done in the face of disruption.  It is necessary,
> and we will continue it.
>
> David Sugar wrote:
>
>     Richard gave a completely different explanation to Stefeno when he met
>     him in Turin last week.  Richard said this was done because Stefano's
>     public list could have public archives.
>
> I did not say that.  As the game "telephone" shows, when words are
> repeated by one person to another, they tend to get distorted at each
> step, even with the best of will.  I think that has happened here.
>
> The practice of reposting all the mail on our list onto the Hipatia
> list was of concern because it caused confusion about which list was
> the official successor of Niibe's list.  But that is not why Stefano
> Barale was removed from the FSF's list.
>
> I advised Pablo to remove from the list anyone that criticizes the
> list itself.  Stefano Barale had done so, so Pablo removed him.  Pablo
> may remove others from the list for the same reason, if he finds it
> appropriate.  I leave it to his judgment when to do this, and I have
> stand behind his decisions.
>
> People have a right to express their opinions of our work, whether
> positive or negative; but when those opinions are negative, we will
> generally choose not to include them in our work.
>
> The free software community is a big place, and the FSF is just a part
> of it.  Those who wish to work for free software but don't like
> something about the FSF have plenty of room to carry out their own
> activities.  The friction between certain members of SoLAr and Hipatia
> and some FSF leaders comes from events where we tried to work
> together.  If we can't work with them, we will wish their free
> software activities success from a distance.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fsg mailing list
> Fsg en libre.org
> http://lists.libre.org/mailman/listinfo/fsg

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