[P2P-F] labour power as a common pool resource

Sun Jun 19 22:05:15 CEST 2016

well that what is what I'm worrying about , since Bitcoin is a
rent-extracting, oligarchy-creating mechanism in ownership and mining,
reinforcing rather than reducing the inequality of the world ...

so saying that OVN is like that either reveals a similar intent, or is a
bad analogy,

I have long thought that you're own thinking is half commons and a unknown
percentage of anarcho-capitalism (like your subjectivist value economics
coming straight ouf of the austrian economic playbook, and the main force
behind neoliberal delusions, well there not delusions for them, since it
does exactly what the oligarchy wants <g>)

I'm saying this with the fullest admiration for your great pioneering work ,

Michel

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 2:58 AM, Tiberius Brastaviceanu <
tiberius.brastaviceanu at gmail.com> wrote:

> but I don't think open value networks can solve this without extra
>> mechanisms
>
>
> Neither do I Michel,  but I believe that OVNs will be the dominant
> economic structure.
>
> Bitcoin network's computing power is more than 500 Googles put together.
> This is what happens when people owning small pieces of hardware agree on a
> protocol to merge all this hardware into a global computer.
>
> SENSORICA is for innovation and production what Bitcoin is for exchange.
> In essence we are designing protocols to allow inputs and rewards from and
> for individuals engaged in economic activity. It is a much tougher problem
> to solve, but with the right protocol you're able to create huge potential
> in a short amount of time... I don't know what old closed, top-down
> structure can survive that.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
> wrote:
>
>> I agree with the general sentiment, that we have to marry a certain level
>> of equality with recognition of special effort and expertise,
>>
>> but I don't think open value networks can solve this without extra
>> mechanisms
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 2:08 AM, Tiberius Brastaviceanu <
>> tiberius.brastaviceanu at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the goal is to find a system that allows us to live within our
>>> means, while allowing differences in lifestyles. People should be able to
>>> chose their lifestyle and earn it. Yes, solidarity or support mechanisms
>>> are required, but I think meritocratic systems can generate a sense of
>>> fairness and become stable at large scale.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>> michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> thanks Tibi,
>>>>
>>>> what are your thoguhts on the sustainability of lavish lifestyles and
>>>> how accessible they are for the whole of humanity ?
>>>>
>>>> Michel
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 12:08 AM, Tiberius Brastaviceanu <
>>>> tiberius.brastaviceanu at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Michel, I think capital will be subjected to p2p because p2p has the
>>>>> biggest lever of power, *innovation*. This is what drives the early
>>>>> manifestations in Sensorica. Corporations will maintain an edge,
>>>>> *production*, until p2p figures out how to to that reliably and
>>>>> efficiently. We have very little experience with it, but I don't see any
>>>>> important barrier. Automation helps our cause.
>>>>>
>>>>> The natural human tendencies to control, accumulate, and live a lavish
>>>>> life will move within open value networks. I see early signs of it. New
>>>>> entrepreneurial skills are required for open value networks, and some
>>>>> individuals who possess them will become essential. It all depends on how
>>>>> well they will be able to negotiate rewards associated with their essential
>>>>> roles within the OVN.
>>>>> There are a lot of people out there that contact me/us and ask to use
>>>>> the NRP and implement the model. Most of them are looking for a software
>>>>> magical solution that can spark and sustain an open venture, until they
>>>>> realize that the NRP is just a tool. I tell people that they need a new set
>>>>> of skills in order to launch a successful peer production operation. These
>>>>> skills are very rare and people who have them will be able to greatly
>>>>> influence these new networks. I am confident that as more and more people
>>>>> acquire these skills the amount of influence these individuals can exert on
>>>>> their networks will diminish, because there are no mechanisms to preserve
>>>>> that power.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I am not worried about capital, as it is organized today, because
>>>>> it is losing its commanding height, innovation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again today I exchanged with someone from California, a small startup
>>>>> that burned half of a million in grant money to get a minimal viable
>>>>> product out, they failed and they are now knocking on our door. These
>>>>> exchanges are more and more frequent! Their first attitude is to
>>>>> instrumentalize SENSORICA as a crowdsourcing network, while trying to hold
>>>>> on to the value capturing mechanisms. I tell them that they have two
>>>>> choices, go the Uber of innovation way, preserve their IP and later share
>>>>> their equity with private investors, once they reach critical mass, or the
>>>>> SENSORICA way (500K is plenty to get this project in orbit), and share
>>>>> their equity with their peers who co-develop it. They are considering
>>>>> SENSORICA very, very seriously, because the classical close innovation
>>>>> model doesn't work anymore, too slow, they risk their first to market
>>>>> advantage, they set themselves up for slow penetration rates, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 7:17 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>> michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm eager to see Tom's reaction, on how his theoretical analysis and
>>>>>> wishes, are confronted with the reality of labor commons actually emerging,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> but I don't share Tibi's analysis that this is un-problematic, in
>>>>>> fact, what Tibi and Sensororica are doing, how well would be the question,
>>>>>> is to create membranes that 'discipline' extractive capital to the needs of
>>>>>> the commoners; if that is NOT done well, it can also be an extractive
>>>>>> mechanism that allows corporations to profit from the largely free labour
>>>>>> donated to these platforms
>>>>>>
>>>>>> that is as much a struggle as the struggle between labor and capital
>>>>>> in commodity labor,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 1:17 AM, Tiberius Brastaviceanu <
>>>>>> tiberius.brastaviceanu at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks Tom for sharing this article. I am going to read it with
>>>>>>> great interest. I copied Alexandre from Ouishare MTL, who has a passion for
>>>>>>> the future of labor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here's my first gut reaction to this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The underlying assumption is the struggle between labor and capital.
>>>>>>> But if our economic system is reconfiguring this relationship is no longer
>>>>>>> the same.
>>>>>>> Peer production networks like www.sensorica.co can be seen as new
>>>>>>> ways of organizing labor, co-managing resources, redistribution of
>>>>>>> benefits, ... All the means of production belong to individuals, are
>>>>>>> co-owned or are under nondominium or commons property regimes, and they are
>>>>>>> shared according to some rules. I don't like to think of the network as an
>>>>>>> accumulation of labor, labor potential that serves capital, unless you are
>>>>>>> thinking about centralized crowdsourcing platforms that play the role of
>>>>>>> intermediary between the crowd and corporations. In the case of SENSORICA I
>>>>>>> see it as an aggregation of labor, skills, resources, for projects that are
>>>>>>> driven by the crowd, for the crowd.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you bet on platform capitalism and you think that these
>>>>>>> centralized crowdsourcing platforms will rule the world, the uberization of
>>>>>>> work, then labor, as subjected to corporations for production, distribution
>>>>>>> and rewards, then you might want to think of protective measures for labor,
>>>>>>> you may want to make it possible for labor to achieve a new equilibrium of
>>>>>>> forces.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you bet on peer production a la SENSORICA all this opposition
>>>>>>> disappears.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a Facebook thread where I mention our observations of
>>>>>>> capital being more and more subjected to peer production rules, from our
>>>>>>> experience with servicing corporations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some links
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interfaces between open p2p networks and classical institutions
>>>>>>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ABmC6YJsszlIPoL-YXU3GF-PLHY0tmQdocBExswh7Lw/edit>
>>>>>>> On redistribution of resources
>>>>>>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F19rvACy80_0k3p32dI2NReuVkmozRvDJceaQCuf8y0/edit>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 12:53 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>>>> michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thanks Tom,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Michel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 11:36 PM, Tom Walker <lumpoflabor at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, Michel. Briefly, a few years ago I wrote a piece called "Time
>>>>>>>>> on the Ledger" that sketches the rudiments of a social accounting framework
>>>>>>>>> that could be used by a labour commons unionism. It's posted on Scribd:
>>>>>>>>> https://www.scribd.com/doc/44657733/Time-on-the-Ledger-Social-Accounting-for-the-Good-Society
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Michel Bauwens <
>>>>>>>>> michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Could you be very specific about this Tom,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I work with post-corporate entrepreneurial coalitions and labour
>>>>>>>>>> mutuals , and it would be of interest to me if you could explain the
>>>>>>>>>> practicalities of how this would work ?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> have you looked into contributive accounting systems like
>>>>>>>>>> Sensorica's
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> how does that relate to your ideas,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> for example:
>>>>>>>>>> http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Interfacing_Open_Peer_Production_Organizations_with_Classical_Institutions
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> CheckFrom: Tom Walker <lumpoflabor at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: [NetworkedLabour] Fwd: [Debate-List]
>>>>>>>>>> (Fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>         Radical leisure, less work, more commoning (Eva Swidler)
>>>>>>>>>> To: P2P Foundation mailing list <
>>>>>>>>>> p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>>>>>         <
>>>>>>>>>> CANz+BQxMmvc9SEh1Rf52GHqiJirV_6RCOUzYA_KYJGM+RpD8rQ at mail.gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I hope this article sparks the conversation that needs to take
>>>>>>>>>> place. It
>>>>>>>>>> certainly raises the issues that need to be addressed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In my view, the next step in thinking about labour, leisure and
>>>>>>>>>> the commons
>>>>>>>>>> is to conceptualize labour power as a common pool resource.
>>>>>>>>>> Unions have
>>>>>>>>>> traditionally bargained for collective terms for individualized
>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>> contracts, which reinforces the selling time for money paradigm.
>>>>>>>>>> "A fair
>>>>>>>>>> day's work for a fair day's wage." Treating labour power as a
>>>>>>>>>> common pool
>>>>>>>>>> resource, however, would require the development of an entirely
>>>>>>>>>> different,
>>>>>>>>>> social accounting framework in which collective interests of
>>>>>>>>>> security and
>>>>>>>>>> community -- commonalty, to use the Luddites' term -- are
>>>>>>>>>> prioritized. I've
>>>>>>>>>> written a few things on labour power as a common pool resource
>>>>>>>>>> and Paul
>>>>>>>>>> Burkett discussed the concept in Marx and Nature.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list:
>>>>>>>>>> http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tom Walker (Sandwichman)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
>>>>>>>> http://commonstransition.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> t!b! <http://www.google.com/profiles/tiberius.brastaviceanu>
>>>>>>> co-founder of SENSORICA <http://www.sensorica.co>: an open value
>>>>>>> network (or open enterprise)
>>>>>>> co-founder of CAKE <http://aces-cake.org/>: consulting for the new
>>>>>>> economy
>>>>>>> founder of Multitude Project <http://multitudeproject.blogspot.ca/>:
>>>>>>> informing the new multitude
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Google Profile <https://plus.google.com/117593809719446924575/about>
>>>>>>> Facebook Tiberius Brastaviceanu
>>>>>>> <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000279944184>
>>>>>>> Twitter  @TiberiusB <http://twitter.com/TiberiusB>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
>>>>>> http://commonstransition.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> t!b! <http://www.google.com/profiles/tiberius.brastaviceanu>
>>>>> co-founder of SENSORICA <http://www.sensorica.co>: an open value
>>>>> network (or open enterprise)
>>>>> co-founder of CAKE <http://aces-cake.org/>: consulting for the new
>>>>> economy
>>>>> founder of Multitude Project <http://multitudeproject.blogspot.ca/>:
>>>>> informing the new multitude
>>>>>
>>>>> Google Profile <https://plus.google.com/117593809719446924575/about>
>>>>> Facebook Tiberius Brastaviceanu
>>>>> <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000279944184>
>>>>> Twitter  @TiberiusB <http://twitter.com/TiberiusB>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
>>>> http://commonstransition.org
>>>>
>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>>
>>>> <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>>
>>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> t!b! <http://www.google.com/profiles/tiberius.brastaviceanu>
>>> co-founder of SENSORICA <http://www.sensorica.co>: an open value
>>> network (or open enterprise)
>>> co-founder of CAKE <http://aces-cake.org/>: consulting for the new
>>> economy
>>> founder of Multitude Project <http://multitudeproject.blogspot.ca/>:
>>> informing the new multitude
>>>
>>> Google Profile <https://plus.google.com/117593809719446924575/about>
>>> Facebook Tiberius Brastaviceanu
>>> <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000279944184>
>>> Twitter  @TiberiusB <http://twitter.com/TiberiusB>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
>> http://commonstransition.org
>>
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>
>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>
>
>
>
> --
> t!b! <http://www.google.com/profiles/tiberius.brastaviceanu>
> co-founder of SENSORICA <http://www.sensorica.co>: an open value network
> (or open enterprise)
> co-founder of CAKE <http://aces-cake.org/>: consulting for the new economy
> founder of Multitude Project <http://multitudeproject.blogspot.ca/>:
> informing the new multitude
>
> Google Profile <https://plus.google.com/117593809719446924575/about>
> Facebook Tiberius Brastaviceanu
> <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000279944184>
> Twitter  @TiberiusB <http://twitter.com/TiberiusB>
>

-- 
Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

<http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates:
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

#82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
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