[P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] The class structure of the "solidarity economy" or any alternative community

Sun Aug 14 19:49:20 CEST 2016

> On 14 aug. 2016, at 16:48, Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
> 
> thanks for putting time in this ... (though I was asking for evidence of gulen support for jason bourne movies <g>)

You are welcome Michel, though I didn't say Gulen funded Bourne movies, but associated with the interest of those forces, according to my interpretation (which is an interpretation) of it. There are of course internal and intra-contradictions between such forces and actors to be interpreted to. As of my knowledge best of such interpretations is Kees van der Pijl's third volume of on political economy and modes of foreign relations (2014). Full of empirical evidence backed and informed by string theory. 

> I have a quite different interpretation of bourne ... the assange and the girl are portrayed sympathetically, the CIA is presented as entirely led by crooks at all levels, with a few ethical lone riders being fought by the system .. but I guess that's a matter of interpretation

Sure..

> I retain from your arguments that you see there are two factions in the ruling class, including a more liberal one, which is entirely plausible, but that the evidence for the concrete links you assume have be researched, which is fine,

Mainly two global fraction from west engages in systemic struggle, and between the hegemonic forces or block they lead and those forces from peripheral internationalist  and nationalist blocks there is a major transnational struggle going on. So more complex network of struggles; then we have labour and other counter forces, challenging these in an inter-class struggle. Identity, environmental, and other fields of struggle intersect and complicate the picture again. 

> I think the overall strenghts of the arguments would be stronger without these leaps,

I agree, and again it needs a deeper study, yet I believe such studies are exist. Just need reading, and specific adaptation to concrete situations; to make at least a bit better sense of the whole picture. 

Orsan

> Michel
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Örsan Şenalp <orsan1234 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The hard evidence for such stuff can come from insiders. May be p2p
>> open intelligence guy (Robert Atllee?), or John Robb, or their contact
>> in special operation units, or intelligence could give better insight
>> about how these things work. In case you have time to go through, such
>> evidence is for long is made public by wikileaks. This is one single
>> example about Turkey and Gulen:
>> https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/37/379052_fw-ct-former-turk-intel-guy-says-gulen-is-cia-front-in.html
>> 
>> This is Graham Fuller, CIA regional desk director for middle east
>> -based in Turkey for long, on Gulen:
>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/graham-e-fuller/gulen-movement-not-cult_b_11116858.html
>> 
>> To compare Gulen with the Moon cult:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Myung_Moon
>> 
>> Also please google, or search wikileaks files on Gulen, Vatican, and
>> Moon relationships.
>> 
>> But I think anyone can try to develop clearer and informed argument,
>> using scattered intelligence on rulers and their global operations.
>> 
>> Which would takes a good article; in the end no one would read, or get
>> it, or don't want to get it :) as in Dmytri's article case, articles
>> can not change the world.
>> 
>> As for the moment, I can remind and try to compile some of the
>> different posts and links I shared in various context, while they were
>> all inter-related to me. They were linking, in my mind, or mapping the
>> historical inter-related developments of military deception, special
>> operation units, organisational science, TNCs and supply chains,
>> complex systems management, behavioural social-mass-movement
>> management (as in Canvas - Otpor story), and finally today's big data
>> based Minerva projects as complementary operations to PRISM and
>> others.
>> 
>> Gulen and Moon is extremely important, since they were 'left projects'
>> of radical democracy: known as long march through the institutions.
>> Rulers, get these left-'radical' reflections and implement them. In 30
>> years, Gulen occupied all high ranks at state institutions; starting
>> from armed forces, army and police, and jurisdiction and education.
>> Now they have been every where. The guys, both were related to Gladio,
>> and were prominent anti-communists; both become global liberal
>> religious 'movements'.
>> 
>> May be historically 'liberal' activists, as you see them as part of
>> the 'left', as in the US mainstream media and commonsense, Gulen and
>> Moon are used for soft-religious movements in Islamic and eastern
>> christian worlds. unification Church of Moon, or 'Dialogue' between
>> Religions project of Gulen, have been part of surrounding China, and
>> Russia since the end of 90s. In a sense, the rock-star left-activism
>> of Bob Geldof, Bono, Angelina Jolie, John Cossack, or Matt Damon for
>> that matter, is very related to the liberalism of Moon and Gulen. Not
>> in terms of radical social system change at all, but liberally
>> conserving or managing the complexities of the change process; so that
>> any change would not dis-allow 'being' famous, or 'being' millioners
>> -in which to them there is nothing wrong; but exactly because of this
>> they fell on the 'right' today, instead of 'left'.
>> 
>> I think Peter and you mean well, when you argue, for 'Dialogue', or
>> possibilities that are independent from what is being calculated,
>> choreographed, executed, or screened, as part of any ruling class
>> project or 'plots', as 'UBI' or 'Commmons', or 'Green New Economy',
>> neo-keinesianism so on; since nothing can be totally calculated there
>> can be positive and unexpected outcomes coming about. I think, no one
>> would disagree with this.
>> 
>> Yet, both in your arguments one can not hear about the limitations and
>> structural strait-jackets designed and put on such unexpected
>> 'anomalies', or dangerous social complexities tried to be manged. I
>> would recommend you Pasquinelli's writings on 'systemic anomaly'
>> tracing algorithm as a supporting evidence about the size and scope of
>> the modern Panopticon; or clashes of Panopticons.  I think what is
>> thought as power of liberal democracy, in political-philosophical
>> sense, also reflects its biggest weakness. In relation to your
>> question Michel: 'how and why would CIA fund or back movies that
>> destroys its image?' this point is essential to grasp (not sure if you
>> watched any of the Bourne or Bond movies): any total or out-come
>> message sent by these movies is not serving to destruct the image of
>> the CIA, at all. In opposite it provide clearing for first 'liberal
>> democracy' in the US (as it remained at all), and then the truly
>> patriotic soul-elements within CIA that are constantly treated by
>> individual free riders, criminals, wrong doers; and blocked by them to
>> serve and save their country. This is not a destruction of the public
>> image of the CIA, opposite it is a part of deceptive image-cleaning
>> operation, imho.
>> 
>> As, in the scene, where Bourne meets someone appears in a terrorist
>> outlook, even darker skin, but who clearly represent Assange, wants to
>> expose 'all misdoing and fucked up institutions of the system'; and
>> Bourne clearly accuse him by exploiting the informant girl -just
>> killed by criminals running the 'agency- and he says he is not on
>> 'their side'. Then there is the Google guy, whose owning the Deep
>> Dream, which got allowed by criminal aspects in CIA to be billioner,
>> and in returned asked to create 'Iron Hand' structure, to be able to
>> follow and record all private and public communication. Clearly film
>> represents the reality, as the CEO stands with CIA-gang, and good
>> guys, like the owner of Google, Bourne, and idealist potentially new
>> female candidate for directorship of the agency forms an alliance for
>> the future. There is no place to Assange, so he gets killed by Bourne
>> after he tries to get the files by killing him.
>> 
>> At a time internal fighting between the almost equally forces of
>> liberal and conservative ruling class fractions, such in-fights derail
>> the legitimacy of the entire system. Then out of the widening cracks,
>> there emerges right wing and fascist alternatives, in the midst of
>> increasingly delegitimation of the parlimantair liberal democracy;
>> casued by the publication of the darkness of the rulers through their
>> countering accuasations via films, media services, news, public
>> debates so on so forth. This constitute the weakness of the
>> power-balance, that is perceived as 'liberal democracy' to masses.
>> When this balance is broken, to a level, and losing control becomes a
>> real threat for liberals (as for conservatives) then they call for
>> stronger but domesticated 'left' voices, public figures, religious
>> cults... so on. Again look at Fuller's and other CIA linked
>> intellectuals writings for regional or world politics. To me, Matt
>> Damon, Bono, and other left-activists are popularising figures what
>> Graham Fuller was wishing more (left movement in Turkey). I would
>> argue, this is not a call, this is a talk in operational terms, and
>> they make this call globally and in general.
>> 
>> People like Fuller, knows that system without alternative is doomed to
>> collapse, and they want to create and manage the emergence of
>> left-alternatives. Weather p2p, commons, new economy,.. they want to
>> be in charge in the creation of The Next System.
>> 
>> O.
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>> in
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> 
> -- 
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> 
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