[P2P-F] Reformist or radical

Tue Aug 9 09:02:03 CEST 2016

Dear Roberto, I would be very interested to hear more of your work on the
potential of RE based microgrids as commons.

Of course domination versus partnership models, power over or power with,
is the basic choice that confronts us in every relationship, relating
through fear or love. Capitalism promotes competetive relationships based
on fear, through artificial scarcity, socialism promotes collaboration
based on love through sharing. This may appear a simplification, but it
goes to the heart of Eisler's insight. And the natural tension between the
two, between self and other, runs through our personal and collective
history, pointing towards a more 'human', ie more loving lifestyle.

On Aug 8, 2016 5:11 AM, "Roberto Verzola" <rverzola at gn.apc.org> wrote:

> Dear Anna,
>
> I'm glad it was useful. I'm currently engaged in work that will explore
> the potential of RE-based microgrids as commons. I also coordinate a
> farming network that promotes the system of rice intensification (SRI) in
> the Philippines. Earlier I had done a lot of work on the information
> economy. So I have seen first hand these tensions between centralized vs
> decentralized, domination vs partnership models, and client/server vs P2P.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Roberto
>
> On Sun, 7 Aug 2016 22:11:58 +0100
> Anna Harris <anna at shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Dear Roberto, I really appreciated your contribution to the discussion
> > around 'reform versus radical revolution'. Our ability to tolerate
> > differences with people who are basically on the same side, seems crucial
> > to me in overcoming the fragmentation and infighting which besets left
> > activists, which Occupy did much to temporarily overcome.
> >
> > Equally I appreciate your reference to Riane Eisler and the dichotomy
> > between dominator and partnership structures, which for me compliments,
> > perhaps even replaces class and gender power structures, for its
> > explanatory depth.
> >
> > The necessity for renewable energy to be distributed rather than
> > centralised is a central tenet of Rifkin's Third Industrial Revolution.
> > And the application to agriculture is embodied in Via Campesina's
> campaign
> > for food sovereignty and agroecology, both topics that have been
> discussed
> > in these lists.
> >
> > The evolution towards something more human needs to include caring
> feelings
> > which Rifkin attempted in his The Empathic Civilisation.
> >
> > Thanks again
> >
> > Anna
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 7, 2016 5:33 AM, "Roberto Verzola" <rverzola at gn.apc.org> wrote:
> >
> > > In my opinion "reformism" and gradualism are two entirely different
> > > things -- the difference being that the later envisons a transition to
> >
> > But a lot of misjudgments are made, and some who think themselves very
> > radical misjudge people who want fundamental change too, as people who
> just
> > want to protect the present system.
> >
> > Furthermore, even those who want fundamental change will disagree among
> > themselves up to what point change must happen. Are you just against high
> > interest rates (but low rates are ok)? Are you against the entire
> principle
> > of charging interest? Or maybe you are also against fractional reserve
> > banking? But others are against the whole idea of fiat money too. Or are
> > you for the abolition of money in general? Or perhaps against markets in
> > general? Are you against specific bad corporations only, or against the
> > corporate form of business in general, or against business in general? If
> > some are not against money in general but only about some aspects of it,
> > does that make them reformists now because because they want to retain
> > other aspects of the money system? Or the market system for that matter.
> > Someone's radical is somebody else's reformist.
> >
> > In such an incredibly complex situation, especially when activists
> continue
> > to educate themselves along and their positions may change over time, it
> is
> > not good to set onesself up as judge and brand people this or that,
> > especially on an open list, as if one had exclusive monopoly over truth.
> >
> > In fact, most on this list are right some of the time and wrong some of
> the
> > time.
> >
> > On a different note: I'm currently reading this (admittedly old--2004)
> book
> > THE GREAT ADVENTURE: Towards a Fully Human Theory of Evolution by David
> > Loye (ed.). It refers to "evolution theorist" Riane Eisler. It says
> Eisler
> > in her contributed article "brings to life how, underlying the full range
> > of human relationships from intimate to international are two basic
> social
> > structures: the domination model and the partnership model". Eisler
> "shows
> > how the tension between these two models has shaped history, and how the
> > outcome of this tension is key to fulfillment or extinction for our
> > species."
> >
> > Eisler might as well have written about the client/server vs the P2P
> > model... In my current work on renewable energy, I am also coming across
> > the same tension between the centralized power generation model and the
> > distributed generation model. A similar tension exists in agriculture and
> > many other areas, as Eisler has observed. Their efforts might yet provide
> > another illuminating context to the P2P movement.
> >
> > The book itself describes an ongoing effort to marry psychology with the
> > theory of evolution towards a new theory of *human* evolution that goes
> far
> > beyond the "survival of the fittest" cliche of neo-darwinists.
> >
> > Greetings to all,
> >
> > Roberto Verzola
> > Philippines
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 21:33:19 -0500
> > Kevin Carson <free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > In my opinion "reformism" and gradualism are two entirely different
> > > things -- the difference being that the later envisons a transition to
> > > a system that is fundamentally different, but simply sees the
> > > transition as a medium- or long-term process, whereas the former wants
> > > to stabilize and ameliorate the existing system of power.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Michel Bauwens
> > > <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Örsan Şenalp <orsan1234 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> As for your reply, what is very striking that not the lack of
> clarity
> > > >> of your opinions on Fabians and relation to Fabianism, but rather a
> > > >> weak confirmation you have given only one thing find good in it;
> > > >> namely guild socialism; or cooperative solidarity economy vision. I
> > > >> would guess this means you believe in gradual change instead of
> > > >> full-force attack at the heart of the machine; which kills billions
> of
> > > >> people and destroy the planet; the main principle of the Fabians.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Orsan,
> > > >
> > > > it seems we are re-doing here the 250 year old battle between
> revoluton
> > and
> > > > reformism, and that your critique of Pat, and sometimes of me, is
> that
> > we
> > > > are reformists.
> > > >
> > > > Personally, I don't see myself as a reformism in the sense it was
> > defined,
> > > >
> > > > but, I do consider this:
> > > >
> > > > * the record of revolution is abysmal, with at least 100 million
> death
> > when
> > > > the revolutionaries were in power (the soviet one, but the earlier
> > french
> > > > was almost as dramatic); and an untold number during the ongoing
> > defeats of
> > > > those that did not succeed
> > > >
> > > > * the record of social democracy in its golden age was
> extraordinary, at
> > > > least for the western working class, but I would argue, if you look
> at
> > > > national liberation, that was also a fundamental advance, not to
> mention
> > > > civil, gender rights etc ..
> > > >
> > > > * but even the revolutionaries who were combatting reformism, were
> not
> > > > against reforms
> > > >
> > > > * now, there is a lot of evidence of social unrest, there were social
> > and
> > > > political and electoral s shifts that brought progressives to power,
> > but is
> > > > there any evidence that global south workers for example are
> > revolutionary
> > > > .. I would argue, they are not, even as they fight radically for
> social
> > and
> > > > labor improvements
> > > >
> > > > People like Pat Conaty , and myself, want post-capitalist structural
> > > > reforms, and a phase transition, but at the same time, we are not
> > opposed to
> > > > reforms and to any social advances that social movements can win
> > > >
> > > > we want full and real democratization, an end to extractive regimes
> and
> > > > practices
> > > >
> > > > yet, you continuously paint us as enemies it seems, and use a sliding
> > scale
> > > > that always ends up with the enemies of the people
> > > >
> > > > it always seems that your real enemy is not the 1%, but those of the
> > 99% who
> > > > do not share your views ..
> > > >
> > > > I see pat conaty, john restakis and others in the network for a
> > cooperative
> > > > commonwealth and synergia, as people with a lifelong record of
> fighting
> > for
> > > > the betterment of their fellow humans
> > > >
> > > > they want reforms, but they are not reformists,
> > > >
> > > > Michel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
> > http://commonstransition.org
> > > >
> > > > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> > > >
> > > > Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/
> mbauwens
> > > >
> > > > #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > NetworkedLabour mailing list
> > > > NetworkedLabour at lists.contrast.org
> > > > http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Kevin Carson
> > > Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory
> > > Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
> > >
> > > "You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry
> Barlow
> > > "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" --
> Anonymous
> > >
> > > Homebrew Industrial Revolution:  A Low-Overhead Manifesto
> > > http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com
> > > Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> >
> > --
> > Roberto Verzola <rverzola at gn.apc.org>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
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>
> --
> Roberto Verzola <rverzola at gn.apc.org>
>
> _______________________________________________
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