[P2P-F] Reformist or radical

Mon Aug 8 00:18:44 CEST 2016

Eisler's cooperator vs. dominator framework, and Oppenheimer's
conquest theory of the state, are possibly good complements to each
other. Dominator societies with patriarchal sky-father religions and
authoritarian child-rearing practices could be usefully treated as
part of the same causal network as the class state.

On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 4:11 PM, Anna Harris <anna at shsh.co.uk> wrote:
> Dear Roberto, I really appreciated your contribution to the discussion
> around 'reform versus radical revolution'. Our ability to tolerate
> differences with people who are basically on the same side, seems crucial to
> me in overcoming the fragmentation and infighting which besets left
> activists, which Occupy did much to temporarily overcome.
>
> Equally I appreciate your reference to Riane Eisler and the dichotomy
> between dominator and partnership structures, which for me compliments,
> perhaps even replaces class and gender power structures, for its explanatory
> depth.
>
> The necessity for renewable energy to be distributed rather than centralised
> is a central tenet of Rifkin's Third Industrial Revolution.  And the
> application to agriculture is embodied in Via Campesina's campaign for food
> sovereignty and agroecology, both topics that have been discussed in these
> lists.
>
> The evolution towards something more human needs to include caring feelings
> which Rifkin attempted in his The Empathic Civilisation.
>
> Thanks again
>
> Anna
>
>
>
> On Aug 7, 2016 5:33 AM, "Roberto Verzola" <rverzola at gn.apc.org> wrote:
>
>> In my opinion "reformism" and gradualism are two entirely different
>> things -- the difference being that the later envisons a transition to
>
> But a lot of misjudgments are made, and some who think themselves very
> radical misjudge people who want fundamental change too, as people who just
> want to protect the present system.
>
> Furthermore, even those who want fundamental change will disagree among
> themselves up to what point change must happen. Are you just against high
> interest rates (but low rates are ok)? Are you against the entire principle
> of charging interest? Or maybe you are also against fractional reserve
> banking? But others are against the whole idea of fiat money too. Or are you
> for the abolition of money in general? Or perhaps against markets in
> general? Are you against specific bad corporations only, or against the
> corporate form of business in general, or against business in general? If
> some are not against money in general but only about some aspects of it,
> does that make them reformists now because because they want to retain other
> aspects of the money system? Or the market system for that matter. Someone's
> radical is somebody else's reformist.
>
> In such an incredibly complex situation, especially when activists continue
> to educate themselves along and their positions may change over time, it is
> not good to set onesself up as judge and brand people this or that,
> especially on an open list, as if one had exclusive monopoly over truth.
>
> In fact, most on this list are right some of the time and wrong some of the
> time.
>
> On a different note: I'm currently reading this (admittedly old--2004) book
> THE GREAT ADVENTURE: Towards a Fully Human Theory of Evolution by David Loye
> (ed.). It refers to "evolution theorist" Riane Eisler. It says Eisler in her
> contributed article "brings to life how, underlying the full range of human
> relationships from intimate to international are two basic social
> structures: the domination model and the partnership model". Eisler "shows
> how the tension between these two models has shaped history, and how the
> outcome of this tension is key to fulfillment or extinction for our
> species."
>
> Eisler might as well have written about the client/server vs the P2P
> model... In my current work on renewable energy, I am also coming across the
> same tension between the centralized power generation model and the
> distributed generation model. A similar tension exists in agriculture and
> many other areas, as Eisler has observed. Their efforts might yet provide
> another illuminating context to the P2P movement.
>
> The book itself describes an ongoing effort to marry psychology with the
> theory of evolution towards a new theory of *human* evolution that goes far
> beyond the "survival of the fittest" cliche of neo-darwinists.
>
> Greetings to all,
>
> Roberto Verzola
> Philippines
>
>
> On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 21:33:19 -0500
> Kevin Carson <free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In my opinion "reformism" and gradualism are two entirely different
>> things -- the difference being that the later envisons a transition to
>> a system that is fundamentally different, but simply sees the
>> transition as a medium- or long-term process, whereas the former wants
>> to stabilize and ameliorate the existing system of power.
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Michel Bauwens
>> <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Örsan Şenalp <orsan1234 at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> As for your reply, what is very striking that not the lack of clarity
>> >> of your opinions on Fabians and relation to Fabianism, but rather a
>> >> weak confirmation you have given only one thing find good in it;
>> >> namely guild socialism; or cooperative solidarity economy vision. I
>> >> would guess this means you believe in gradual change instead of
>> >> full-force attack at the heart of the machine; which kills billions of
>> >> people and destroy the planet; the main principle of the Fabians.
>> >
>> >
>> > Dear Orsan,
>> >
>> > it seems we are re-doing here the 250 year old battle between revoluton
>> > and
>> > reformism, and that your critique of Pat, and sometimes of me, is that
>> > we
>> > are reformists.
>> >
>> > Personally, I don't see myself as a reformism in the sense it was
>> > defined,
>> >
>> > but, I do consider this:
>> >
>> > * the record of revolution is abysmal, with at least 100 million death
>> > when
>> > the revolutionaries were in power (the soviet one, but the earlier
>> > french
>> > was almost as dramatic); and an untold number during the ongoing defeats
>> > of
>> > those that did not succeed
>> >
>> > * the record of social democracy in its golden age was extraordinary, at
>> > least for the western working class, but I would argue, if you look at
>> > national liberation, that was also a fundamental advance, not to mention
>> > civil, gender rights etc ..
>> >
>> > * but even the revolutionaries who were combatting reformism, were not
>> > against reforms
>> >
>> > * now, there is a lot of evidence of social unrest, there were social
>> > and
>> > political and electoral s shifts that brought progressives to power, but
>> > is
>> > there any evidence that global south workers for example are
>> > revolutionary
>> > .. I would argue, they are not, even as they fight radically for social
>> > and
>> > labor improvements
>> >
>> > People like Pat Conaty , and myself, want post-capitalist structural
>> > reforms, and a phase transition, but at the same time, we are not
>> > opposed to
>> > reforms and to any social advances that social movements can win
>> >
>> > we want full and real democratization, an end to extractive regimes and
>> > practices
>> >
>> > yet, you continuously paint us as enemies it seems, and use a sliding
>> > scale
>> > that always ends up with the enemies of the people
>> >
>> > it always seems that your real enemy is not the 1%, but those of the 99%
>> > who
>> > do not share your views ..
>> >
>> > I see pat conaty, john restakis and others in the network for a
>> > cooperative
>> > commonwealth and synergia, as people with a lifelong record of fighting
>> > for
>> > the betterment of their fellow humans
>> >
>> > they want reforms, but they are not reformists,
>> >
>> > Michel
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
>> > http://commonstransition.org
>> >
>> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>> >
>> > Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>> >
>> > #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > NetworkedLabour mailing list
>> > NetworkedLabour at lists.contrast.org
>> > http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kevin Carson
>> Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory
>> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
>>
>> "You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow
>> "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous
>>
>> Homebrew Industrial Revolution:  A Low-Overhead Manifesto
>> http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com
>> Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com
>>
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>
>
> --
> Roberto Verzola <rverzola at gn.apc.org>
>
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-- 
Kevin Carson
Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory
Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org

"You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow
"We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous

Homebrew Industrial Revolution:  A Low-Overhead Manifesto
http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com
Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com