[P2P-F] Reformist or radical

Sun Aug 7 23:11:58 CEST 2016

Dear Roberto, I really appreciated your contribution to the discussion
around 'reform versus radical revolution'. Our ability to tolerate
differences with people who are basically on the same side, seems crucial
to me in overcoming the fragmentation and infighting which besets left
activists, which Occupy did much to temporarily overcome.

Equally I appreciate your reference to Riane Eisler and the dichotomy
between dominator and partnership structures, which for me compliments,
perhaps even replaces class and gender power structures, for its
explanatory depth.

The necessity for renewable energy to be distributed rather than
centralised is a central tenet of Rifkin's Third Industrial Revolution.
And the application to agriculture is embodied in Via Campesina's campaign
for food sovereignty and agroecology, both topics that have been discussed
in these lists.

The evolution towards something more human needs to include caring feelings
which Rifkin attempted in his The Empathic Civilisation.

Thanks again

Anna

On Aug 7, 2016 5:33 AM, "Roberto Verzola" <rverzola at gn.apc.org> wrote:

> In my opinion "reformism" and gradualism are two entirely different
> things -- the difference being that the later envisons a transition to

But a lot of misjudgments are made, and some who think themselves very
radical misjudge people who want fundamental change too, as people who just
want to protect the present system.

Furthermore, even those who want fundamental change will disagree among
themselves up to what point change must happen. Are you just against high
interest rates (but low rates are ok)? Are you against the entire principle
of charging interest? Or maybe you are also against fractional reserve
banking? But others are against the whole idea of fiat money too. Or are
you for the abolition of money in general? Or perhaps against markets in
general? Are you against specific bad corporations only, or against the
corporate form of business in general, or against business in general? If
some are not against money in general but only about some aspects of it,
does that make them reformists now because because they want to retain
other aspects of the money system? Or the market system for that matter.
Someone's radical is somebody else's reformist.

In such an incredibly complex situation, especially when activists continue
to educate themselves along and their positions may change over time, it is
not good to set onesself up as judge and brand people this or that,
especially on an open list, as if one had exclusive monopoly over truth.

In fact, most on this list are right some of the time and wrong some of the
time.

On a different note: I'm currently reading this (admittedly old--2004) book
THE GREAT ADVENTURE: Towards a Fully Human Theory of Evolution by David
Loye (ed.). It refers to "evolution theorist" Riane Eisler. It says Eisler
in her contributed article "brings to life how, underlying the full range
of human relationships from intimate to international are two basic social
structures: the domination model and the partnership model". Eisler "shows
how the tension between these two models has shaped history, and how the
outcome of this tension is key to fulfillment or extinction for our
species."

Eisler might as well have written about the client/server vs the P2P
model... In my current work on renewable energy, I am also coming across
the same tension between the centralized power generation model and the
distributed generation model. A similar tension exists in agriculture and
many other areas, as Eisler has observed. Their efforts might yet provide
another illuminating context to the P2P movement.

The book itself describes an ongoing effort to marry psychology with the
theory of evolution towards a new theory of *human* evolution that goes far
beyond the "survival of the fittest" cliche of neo-darwinists.

Greetings to all,

Roberto Verzola
Philippines

On Sat, 6 Aug 2016 21:33:19 -0500
Kevin Carson <free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com> wrote:

> In my opinion "reformism" and gradualism are two entirely different
> things -- the difference being that the later envisons a transition to
> a system that is fundamentally different, but simply sees the
> transition as a medium- or long-term process, whereas the former wants
> to stabilize and ameliorate the existing system of power.
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Michel Bauwens
> <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Örsan Şenalp <orsan1234 at gmail.com>
wrote:
> >>
> >> As for your reply, what is very striking that not the lack of clarity
> >> of your opinions on Fabians and relation to Fabianism, but rather a
> >> weak confirmation you have given only one thing find good in it;
> >> namely guild socialism; or cooperative solidarity economy vision. I
> >> would guess this means you believe in gradual change instead of
> >> full-force attack at the heart of the machine; which kills billions of
> >> people and destroy the planet; the main principle of the Fabians.
> >
> >
> > Dear Orsan,
> >
> > it seems we are re-doing here the 250 year old battle between revoluton
and
> > reformism, and that your critique of Pat, and sometimes of me, is that
we
> > are reformists.
> >
> > Personally, I don't see myself as a reformism in the sense it was
defined,
> >
> > but, I do consider this:
> >
> > * the record of revolution is abysmal, with at least 100 million death
when
> > the revolutionaries were in power (the soviet one, but the earlier
french
> > was almost as dramatic); and an untold number during the ongoing
defeats of
> > those that did not succeed
> >
> > * the record of social democracy in its golden age was extraordinary, at
> > least for the western working class, but I would argue, if you look at
> > national liberation, that was also a fundamental advance, not to mention
> > civil, gender rights etc ..
> >
> > * but even the revolutionaries who were combatting reformism, were not
> > against reforms
> >
> > * now, there is a lot of evidence of social unrest, there were social
and
> > political and electoral s shifts that brought progressives to power,
but is
> > there any evidence that global south workers for example are
revolutionary
> > .. I would argue, they are not, even as they fight radically for social
and
> > labor improvements
> >
> > People like Pat Conaty , and myself, want post-capitalist structural
> > reforms, and a phase transition, but at the same time, we are not
opposed to
> > reforms and to any social advances that social movements can win
> >
> > we want full and real democratization, an end to extractive regimes and
> > practices
> >
> > yet, you continuously paint us as enemies it seems, and use a sliding
scale
> > that always ends up with the enemies of the people
> >
> > it always seems that your real enemy is not the 1%, but those of the
99% who
> > do not share your views ..
> >
> > I see pat conaty, john restakis and others in the network for a
cooperative
> > commonwealth and synergia, as people with a lifelong record of fighting
for
> > the betterment of their fellow humans
> >
> > they want reforms, but they are not reformists,
> >
> > Michel
> >
> >
> > --
> > Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at:
http://commonstransition.org
> >
> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
> >
> > Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
> >
> > #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NetworkedLabour mailing list
> > NetworkedLabour at lists.contrast.org
> > http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Carson
> Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory
> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
>
> "You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow
> "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous
>
> Homebrew Industrial Revolution:  A Low-Overhead Manifesto
> http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com
> Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com
>
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--
Roberto Verzola <rverzola at gn.apc.org>

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