[P2P-F] [NetworkedLabour] An Open Letter to the Fabian Society (was: Re: New models of leadership)

Sun Aug 7 05:44:45 CEST 2016

Absolutely, and thanks! If I'd read Mason and more autonomist stuff
like Dyer-Witheford at the time I wrote that, I'd probably have made a
better argument.

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 10:30 PM, Orsan <orsan1234 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Kevin I guess this give more derailed insights of your position, hope it is okay to share here: https://c4ss.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/SomeRevCarson.pdf
>
> Orsan
>
>
>> On 7 aug. 2016, at 04:33, Kevin Carson <free.market.anticapitalist at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> In my opinion "reformism" and gradualism are two entirely different
>> things -- the difference being that the later envisons a transition to
>> a system that is fundamentally different, but simply sees the
>> transition as a medium- or long-term process, whereas the former wants
>> to stabilize and ameliorate the existing system of power.
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Michel Bauwens
>> <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Örsan Şenalp <orsan1234 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> As for your reply, what is very striking that not the lack of clarity
>>>> of your opinions on Fabians and relation to Fabianism, but rather a
>>>> weak confirmation you have given only one thing find good in it;
>>>> namely guild socialism; or cooperative solidarity economy vision. I
>>>> would guess this means you believe in gradual change instead of
>>>> full-force attack at the heart of the machine; which kills billions of
>>>> people and destroy the planet; the main principle of the Fabians.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Orsan,
>>>
>>> it seems we are re-doing here the 250 year old battle between revoluton and
>>> reformism, and that your critique of Pat, and sometimes of me, is that we
>>> are reformists.
>>>
>>> Personally, I don't see myself as a reformism in the sense it was defined,
>>>
>>> but, I do consider this:
>>>
>>> * the record of revolution is abysmal, with at least 100 million death when
>>> the revolutionaries were in power (the soviet one, but the earlier french
>>> was almost as dramatic); and an untold number during the ongoing defeats of
>>> those that did not succeed
>>>
>>> * the record of social democracy in its golden age was extraordinary, at
>>> least for the western working class, but I would argue, if you look at
>>> national liberation, that was also a fundamental advance, not to mention
>>> civil, gender rights etc ..
>>>
>>> * but even the revolutionaries who were combatting reformism, were not
>>> against reforms
>>>
>>> * now, there is a lot of evidence of social unrest, there were social and
>>> political and electoral s shifts that brought progressives to power, but is
>>> there any evidence that global south workers for example are revolutionary
>>> .. I would argue, they are not, even as they fight radically for social and
>>> labor improvements
>>>
>>> People like Pat Conaty , and myself, want post-capitalist structural
>>> reforms, and a phase transition, but at the same time, we are not opposed to
>>> reforms and to any social advances that social movements can win
>>>
>>> we want full and real democratization, an end to extractive regimes and
>>> practices
>>>
>>> yet, you continuously paint us as enemies it seems, and use a sliding scale
>>> that always ends up with the enemies of the people
>>>
>>> it always seems that your real enemy is not the 1%, but those of the 99% who
>>> do not share your views ..
>>>
>>> I see pat conaty, john restakis and others in the network for a cooperative
>>> commonwealth and synergia, as people with a lifelong record of fighting for
>>> the betterment of their fellow humans
>>>
>>> they want reforms, but they are not reformists,
>>>
>>> Michel
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org
>>>
>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>
>>> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>
>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NetworkedLabour mailing list
>>> NetworkedLabour at lists.contrast.org
>>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kevin Carson
>> Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory
>> Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org
>>
>> "You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow
>> "We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous
>>
>> Homebrew Industrial Revolution:  A Low-Overhead Manifesto
>> http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com
>> Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com
>>
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-- 
Kevin Carson
Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory
Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org

"You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow
"We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous

Homebrew Industrial Revolution:  A Low-Overhead Manifesto
http://homebrewindustrialrevolution.wordpress.com
Desktop Regulatory State http://desktopregulatorystate.wordpress.com