[P2P-F] [WSF-Discuss] Internet Social Forum
Örsan Şenalp
orsan1234 at gmail.com
Sat Jun 13 12:30:50 CEST 2015
Paraminder I see your hand, and increase :)
5 relevant items to share, which provides contradictory picture of the
contradictory nature of our social relationships and their contradictory
relationships to the cosmos they are embedded in:
a hollywood movie:
Snowpiercer (free watch online!! is p2p torrent appropriation of a
Hollywood movie a good thing or a self-brainwashing)
http://movietv.to/movies/698089-Snowpiercer
sci-fie version of Lenin's trip...
an Hollywood(?) documentary:
The 11th Hour https://vimeo.com/107108296
an MTv documentary on Gezi-journalism-music-techncommunicational tools:
"RebelMusic Turkey" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grcse_8GYIk
reminds me MTV' original mission in counter culture re-apprepriation by
neoliberal capitalism
an event on 'Circuits of struggles' - must have gone there -
https://udc2015.wordpress.com/special-conference-plenaries/circuits-of-struggle-resistance-re-appropriation-and-repurposing-in-global-networks-of-class-struggle/
a first chapter of a book: must read
Cyber-prolateriat by Nick Dyer-Witheford
http://issuu.com/plutopress/docs/pages_from_dyer_cp_no_crops_05-03-2/3
Orsan
On 13 June 2015 at 12:05, parminder <parminder at itforchange.net> wrote:
> Interesting and useful conversation.
>
> This article, a book review, may add some further perspectives to it,
> http://www.triple-c.at/index.php/tripleC/article/view/689/716 .
>
> parminder
>
>
> On Saturday 13 June 2015 03:15 PM, peter waterman wrote:
>
> Ariel:
>
> It is a pleasure to dialogue with you. But to avoid us going round in
> circles, rather than in a constructive spiral, I should really leave a
> defence of - no a positive, eco-sensitive, gender-aware - the emancipatory
> implications of the internet/the web/cyberspace to those better qualified
> than I.
>
> So I will take issue with one one para of yours:
>
> 'No I think you are not quite grasping the full meanings of
> ‘commodification' and 'colonisation' as materially and culturally embodied
> in this manufactured instrument the Internet. That reflects perhaps your
> marxist schooling, which tradition has leaned towards an assumption that
> technologies are neutral.
> Here it seems important to emphasise the difference between a technology
> and a tool. The latter is a relatively simple object. The former brings -
> and commits us to - a whole fandangle of social relations.'
>
> My Marxist schooling: A touch, a touch, I do confess. But it was,
> rather, a Communist schooling, to which your strictures, here and
> elsewhere, do certainly apply. I have been struggling with both, however,
> since - let's say - my first experience of living with and under Communism,
> in Czechoslovakia, 1955-8.
>
> Commodification and colonisation: the first of these is pretty much
> associated with Marxism. The second was taken over and reworked in
> Marxist/Leninist theories of imperialism.
>
> Technology: I think we have to recognise this as marked by profound
> internal contradictions.
>
> It was not the intention of the railway to make it possible for French
> workers to take a cheap trip to London, to meet up with those of other
> countries, 1851 (I seem to recall).
>
> No more was it the intention of the German Empire that their sealed train,
> with Lenin inside, should lead to the Bolshevik Revolution (they only
> wanted him to screw up the Russian Empire's war effort).
>
> I go with the spirit of Hans Magnus Enzensberger, commenting on the Paris
> 1968 activists' failure to occupy the TV rather than the Opera, and to
> depend on wall slogans and hand-lithographed posters. He said, of the
> highest capitalist communication technology of that era, 'A distaste for
> handling shit is something sewer workers can hardly afford'.
>
> Well, the latest capitalist technology is, in comparison, dramatically
> different from the shit of 1968. It has created a new universe, which I
> call Cyberia, of an extremely contradictory nature. It is, of course, both
> surrounded by shit, full of shit and productive of shit. You have stressed
> the ecology-destructive effects of the technology involved. These are known
> to those concerned with emancipation and the commons. As, also, of course,
> its capacity for surveillance, control and punishment. The moment of
> left-ish cyber-utopianism was the 1980s-90s. What I today see is a wide,
> varied, complex and - yes - contradictory wave of radical-democratic
> efforts on this novel terrain. I mention a few names: Snowden, Castells,
> Bauwens, Laura Agustin, Gerbaudi, Sally Burch, Dyer-Witheford, Jodi Dean.
>
> You will be considering yourself lucky that I didn't respond to ALL the
> paragraphs?
>
> Best,
>
> PeterW
>
>
>
> 1. 2014. From Coldwar Communism to the Global Justice Movement:
> Itinerary of a Long-Distance Internationalist.
> <http://snuproject.wordpress.com/2015/01/02/1987-e-reader-ed-by-peter-waterman-on-labour-social-movements-and-internationalism-the-old-internationalism-and-the-new/>http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/from_coldwar_communism
> _to_the_global_emancipatory_movement/
> <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/from_coldwar_communism_to_the_global_emancipatory_movement/> (Free).
>
> 2. 2014. Interface Journal Special (Co-Editor), December 2014. 'Social
> Movement Internationalisms'. (Free).
> <http://www.interfacejournal.net/current/>
> * <http://www.interfacejournal.net/current/>*
> 3. 2014. 'The Networked Internationalism of Labour's Others', in Jai
> Sen (ed), Peter Waterman (co-ed), The Movement of Movements:
> <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/the_movements_of_movements/>Struggles
> for Other Worlds (Part I).
> <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/the_movements_of_movements/> (10
> Euros).
> 4. 2012. EBook: Recovering Internationalism
> <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/recovering_internationalism/>. [A
> compilation of papers from the new millenium. Now free in two download
> formats]
> 5. 2013. EBook (co-editor), February 2013: World Social Forum:
> Critical Explorations
> http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/world_social_forum/
> 6. 2012. Interface Journal Special (co-editor), November 2012: *For
> the Global Emancipation of Labour
> <http://www.interfacejournal.net/current/>*
> 7. 2005-?
> <http://interfacejournal.nuim.ie/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Interface-1-2-pp255-262-Waterman.pdf>
> Ongoing. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman.???. Needed:
> a Global Labour Charter Movement (2005-Now!)
> <http://interfacejournal.nuim.ie/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Interface-1-2-pp255-262-Waterman.pdf>
> 8. 2011. Under, Against, Beyond: Labour and Social Movements Confront
> a Globalised, Informatised Capitalism
> <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/>(2011) (c.
> 1,000 pages of Working Papers, free, from the 1980's-90's).
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Ariel Salleh <arielsalleh7 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 11 Jun 2015, at 7:27 am, peter waterman <peterwaterman1936 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Ariel, hola!
>> I am wondering whether or not you received a message I sent in response
>> to you, dated c. May 29.
>>
>> Peter dear friend, I did reply - to you and Jai and Mikel all together -
>> but it evaporated in the ether - which may well be a sign of things to come.
>>
>> It might have got lost in space. I will not repeat it. But I do want to
>> respond to what you say below (re-pasted by me so that it fits my screen).
>> I know it is a pain on the eye, but I will do this para by para and in
>> CAPS.
>>
>>
>> *While considering security aspects of the 2016 WSF in Canada,
>> remember that the more we embed our activities in capitalist technologies
>> like ICT the more we give up our autonomy and make our politics transparent
>> and vulnerable to unsympathetic powers. *
>> I AM WONDERING WHETHER THERE ARE ANY EMANCIPATORY TECHNOLOGIES AROUND,
>> EITHER PRE- OR POST-CAPITALIST. WE ALL USE TRAINS, MOST OF US USE PLANES,
>> WE WATCH OR PRODUCE MOVIES, VIDEOS, PHOTOS, PRINT. OF THESE THE ONLY ONE
>> THAT IS NOT CAPITALIST MIGHT BE PRINT - WHICH PROVIDED A MAJOR MEANS FOR
>> THE DEVELOPMENT OF CAPITALISM.
>> ICT IS THE MOST CONTRADICTORY TECHNOLOGY CAPITALISM HAS PRODUCED. ALL
>> SERIOUS LEFT WRITERS ON IT EITHER RECOGNISE OR EVEN SEARCH OUT ITS PRESENT
>> AND IMMINENT DANGERS. THEY THEN, HOWEVER, GO ON TO CONSIDER ITS AMBIGUOUS
>> OR EMANCIPATORY POTENTIALS (AND CURRENT USES). CHECK THE NICK
>> DYER-WITHEFORD CHAPTER I POSTED THIS VERY DAY - EVEN IF HE DOES NOT HERE
>> SHOW ANY GENDER SENSITIVITY.
>>
>> Agreed
>>
>> *But the idea of an Internet Social Forum carries much deeper
>> political contradictions than this.*
>> *Technologies are never culturally neutral but embody value systems
>> within them. Recent List discussions in favour of an Internet Social Forum
>> overlook this by embracing wholesale a form of colonisation by the
>> commodity society, fully opposed to the alter-global social critique that
>> WSF is building on.*
>> COLONISATION AND COMMODIFICATION ARE FULLY RECOGNISED BY EMANCIPATORY
>> ACTIVISTS AND THEORISTS. SO THERE IS HERE NO WHOLESALE EMBRACE BUT A
>> SELECTIVE USE INTENDED TO SUBVERT AND SURPASS COLONISATION AND
>> COMMODIFICATION.
>>
>> No I think you are not quite grasping the full meanings of
>> ‘commodification' and 'colonisation' as materially and culturally embodied
>> in this manufactured instrument the Internet. That reflects perhaps your
>> marxist schooling, which tradition has leaned towards an assumption that
>> technologies are neutral.
>> Here it seems important to emphasise the difference between a technology
>> and a tool. The latter is a relatively simple object. The former brings -
>> and commits us to - a whole fandangle of social relations.
>>
>> SECONDLY, IT IS QUITE UNCLEAR TO ME WHAT TECHNOLOGY WOULD, FOR YOU, BE
>> COMPATIBLE WITH 'ALTER-G' (A TERM I NEVER USE BECAUSE OF ITS DEPENDENCE ON
>> THE G-WORD. I PREFER 'GLOBAL JUSTICE AND SOLIDARITY MOVEMENT').
>>
>> A globally just technology would not damage the planetary ecosystem that
>> we all depend on for our very existence. The Internet has massive costs in
>> terms of toxifying water - just as we approach “peak water”. It’s global
>> warming impacts alone should be enough to stop WSF activists in their
>> tracks.
>> Then there are the medical effects of electromagnetic radiation on human
>> bodies.
>>
>> WOULD THIS IMPLY A RETURN TO THE CHASQUIHUASI SYSTEM OF COMMUNICATION
>> USED IN THE ANDES BEFORE THE SPANISH INTRODUCED THE HORSE.
>>
>> WELL THAT QUITE REMARKABLE SYSTEM (OR RUNNERS AND STAGEING POSTS)
>> ENABLED COMMUNICATION OVER 5,000 KM. BUT IT WAS AN IMPERIAL SYSTEM, USING A
>> PRE-ALPHABETIC MESSAGING UNDERSTOOD ONLY BY THE RULERS.
>> FURTHER IT MUST BE POINTED OUT - AND HAS BEEN IN THIS AND OTHER EXCHANGES
>> - THAT WSF INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL COMMUNICATIONS HAVE BEEN THE MOST
>> UNDEVELOPED ASPECT OF ITS ACTIVITIES.
>>
>> Important to avoid lapsing into ideological assumptions, like the Social
>> Darwinist notions of “development” or “going backwards”. It is part of the
>> capitalist mythos that history is linear and upwards, whereas in fact ever
>> new forms of idiocy and barbarism arise all around us as we speak.
>>
>> *It is ironic that a Canadian hosted WSF emphasising indigenous
>> knowing and being, as well as economic models based on de-growth, should
>> tie itself to an instrument of global military domination and social
>> homogenisation.*
>> NO IT IS NOT IRONIC. INDIGENOUS PEOPLES WOULD HAVE NO INTERNATIONAL,
>> POSSIBLY NO INTERCOMMUNAL NETWORKING IF NOT FOR ICT.
>>
>> I am not so sure that this is true, Peter. Peoples have travelled across
>> land and sea and made cultural exchanges for centuries.
>>
>> THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH 'DE-GROWTH' (ANOTHER NEGATIVE TERM I DO NOT
>> CARE FOR, THO I AGREE WITH THE GENERAL ARGUMENT IT EXPRESSES). THAT IS
>> THOSE ASPECTS OF PRODUCTION, CONSUMPTION AND DUMPING WELL PORTRAYED IN THE
>> ITEM YOU ATTACHED. ANY HOLISTIC EMANCIPATORY ITC STRATEGY HAS TO PRIORITISE
>> THIS INCREASINGLY BURNING ISSUE. MY GUESS IS THAT SOMEONE IS DOING SO.
>> ANYONE BETTER INFORMED THAN ME ABOUT THIS?
>>
>> We share these reservations about the de-growth movement. It is a very
>> tentative step towards eco-sufficiency and global justice on the part of
>> folks in the global North.
>>
>> *Yes, we are already using the internet here for our communications,
>> but that should not imply some kind of historical inevitability. For
>> example, I drove a car for 3 decades, then decided to refuse the technology
>> - one small step towards eco-sufficiency.*
>> I ALSO GAVE UP MY CAR, ARIEL. AND I HAVE ARGUED THAT THE STANDARD WSF
>> MODEL IS ANTI-ECOLOGICAL IN REQUIRING AIR TRAVEL OVER LONG DISTANCES. AND
>> WITHOUT RECOGNISING ANY CONTRADICTION HERE. BUT ARE YOU ALSO GOING TO GIVE
>> UP AIR TRAVEL?
>>
>> The environmental costs of jet-setting to WSFs should be eased somewhat
>> by the Polycentric WSF model.
>> As a slightly tongue in cheek suggestion: Australians and Pacific
>> Islanders are both small populations and remote from other continents - so
>> perhaps a principle of "common but differentiated responsibilities" might
>> apply in this case!
>>
>> *Political security and cultural homogenisation aside, reliance on
>> the Internet also has neocolonial impacts, human health costs, and severe
>> environmental effects - as the following article explains.*
>> OK, THE ADDITIONAL ARGUMENT HERE IS THAT OF CULTURAL HOMOGENISATION. THIS
>> HAS BEEN WELL UNDERWAY WITH TV OVER MAYBE A 50-YEAR PERIOD. THIS WAS A
>> MAJOR ISSUE AMONGST LEFT MEDIA CRITICS/ACTIVISTS IN LATIN AMERICA. TV, LIKE
>> RADIO, LIKE CINEMA IS PRIMARILY A ONE-TO-MANY MODE, AND IT WAS, INDEED,
>> COMMODITISATION, THAT WIPED OUT THE INTERNATIONAL WORKER (ACTUALLY
>> COMMUNIST) FILM AND RADIO MOVEMENTS.
>>
>> ICT IS BASED ON THE LOGIC OF FEED-BACK AND IS, INCREASINGLY A
>> MANY-TO-MANY MEANS OF COMMUNICATION.
>>
>> Radio is very much a two-way technology, of course - as for TV, I’ve
>> never had one.
>>
>> THE PEER TO PEER MOVEMENT IS, PRECISELY CONCERNED TO ENSURE THAT IT
>> BECOMES SO, THAT IT IS DE-COMMODITISED, AND THAT P2P IS NOT CAPTURED FOR
>> ITS OWN NEFARIOUS PURPOSES BY CAPITAL, STATE AND PATRIARCHY.
>>
>> This strikes me as illusory - and rests on a quite thin notion of
>> commodification. P2P cannot possibly manufacture the global infrastructure
>> itself but will needs rely on some kind of capitalised industry to do so.
>>
>>
>> *There is a huge dilemma here for WSF - and one that cannot be answered
>> simply by ensuring "democratic consultation" and “protecting human rights”
>> in the digital sector. *
>> IT IS NOT LIMITED TO THESE TWO AIMS OR VALUES.
>>
>> Well actually I think it is, as long as cultural, medical, environmental
>> aspects are continually backgrounded by Left and Right alike.
>> A
>>
>>
>> *At the very least, future WSF meetings - polycentric and otherwise -
>> must carefully Workshop these critical questions.*
>> AGREED.
>>
>> Ariel
>> BEST,
>> P.
>>
>> 1. 2014. From Coldwar Communism to the Global Justice Movement:
>> Itinerary of a Long-Distance Internationalist.
>> <http://snuproject.wordpress.com/2015/01/02/1987-e-reader-ed-by-peter-waterman-on-labour-social-movements-and-internationalism-the-old-internationalism-and-the-new/>http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/from_coldwar_communism
>> _to_the_global_emancipatory_movement/
>> <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/from_coldwar_communism_to_the_global_emancipatory_movement/> (Free).
>>
>> 2. 2014. Interface Journal Special (Co-Editor), December 2014. 'Social
>> Movement Internationalisms'. (Free).
>> <http://www.interfacejournal.net/current/>
>> * <http://www.interfacejournal.net/current/>*
>> 3. 2014. 'The Networked Internationalism of Labour's Others', in Jai
>> Sen (ed), Peter Waterman (co-ed), The Movement of Movements:
>> <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/the_movements_of_movements/>Struggles
>> for Other Worlds (Part I).
>> <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/the_movements_of_movements/> (10
>> Euros).
>> 4. 2012. EBook: Recovering Internationalism
>> <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/recovering_internationalism/>. [A
>> compilation of papers from the new millenium. Now free in two download
>> formats]
>> 5. 2013. EBook (co-editor), February 2013: World Social Forum:
>> Critical Explorations
>> http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/world_social_forum/
>> 6. 2012. Interface Journal Special (co-editor), November 2012: *For
>> the Global Emancipation of Labour
>> <http://www.interfacejournal.net/current/>*
>> 7. 2005-?
>> <http://interfacejournal.nuim.ie/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Interface-1-2-pp255-262-Waterman.pdf>
>> Ongoing. Blog: http://www.unionbook.org/profile/peterwaterman.???. Needed:
>> a Global Labour Charter Movement (2005-Now!)
>> <http://interfacejournal.nuim.ie/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Interface-1-2-pp255-262-Waterman.pdf>
>> 8. 2011. Under, Against, Beyond: Labour and Social Movements
>> Confront a Globalised, Informatised Capitalism
>> <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/under-against-beyond/>(2011) (c.
>> 1,000 pages of Working Papers, free, from the 1980's-90's).
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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> _______________________________________________
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