[P2P-F] [Research] [investigacion] english version of the summit declaration

[willi uebelherr]

Dear Bernardo,

many thanks for your message. I append the answer from Michel to 
Quiliro. In there you can read, that Michel don't like to continue the 
discussion about FLOK and all backgrounds. For me, the backgrounds are 
the most important parts.

The financial relation in FLOK is not so important for me. But it is 
clear, that if you had made an agreement with the institutions from 
Ecuador, they have to follow this statements. Independent of any 
personal relations.

Michel fly. He don't like this discussion to the state. And maybe, the 
most people in the FLOK environment don't like this discussion. But 
similar to Venezuela and Bolivia, we need this reflection.

Many people wrote about, that in the ecuadorian society there is a big 
distance to the state and the practice of the institutions, that act as 
institutions for the state. And i read it also in your text. But we 
should be clear, never a state exist. It is a virtual construction and 
the employers use this only for her self identification. And the others 
relate to this construction to legitimate his special rights and 
permissions.

The commons, the universal right to use the common resources for all 
people in the society, and the universal responsibility for all people 
in the society for her natural environment, the central part of the 
commons, is totally incompatible with the state construction, the roman 
state law.

In general on our planet, always they have and use the "commons". And in 
Latin America the indigena use it today. Or want to use it, because all 
state systems in latin america try yo destroy the rests of it. This is, 
why i don't understand this theater together with the ecuadorian state.

Maybe, my thinking is too radical for you. But we should speak open and 
free without any taboos.

My way is very different, but on the same principles. We have to support 
the local communities in the development of here local independent 
economy, based on here local technical infrastructures. And for that all 
state institutions in latin america, what i know, are totally 
superflous. And also destructive and blocking.

Therefore i wrote, that we have to make ourselv free from the state 
dogmatics. Not the people, because the most of them are free of that. 
The employers in the state institutions in her parasitic existence are 
the most strong defenders of the state.

This we can see very clear in Venezuela and Nicaragua. The political 
base of the political elites are the employers of the state. And with 
the petro-dollars, the free-trade slaving systems, the plundering of the 
nature (extractivismo) the yes-sayer are bought.

And now Michel Bauwens bring in the reactionary state ideologic in the 
open commons sphere. Like Elinor Ostrom. Of course, they need the state 
for her existence, direct or indirect. Or they think, this is the 
natural form of social society. But never any normal people on our 
planet was part of this decision-making processes.

many greetings, willi
Bogota, Colombia



-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Betreff: Re: [Research] [investigacion] english version of the summit 
declaration
Datum: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 22:23:16 +0700
Von: Michel Bauwens <p2pfoundation1 at gmail.com>
An: Quiliro Ordóñez Baca <quiliro at congresolibre.org>
Kopie (CC): willi uebelherr <willi.uebelherr at gmail.com>, 
"research at listas.floksociety.org" <research at listas.floksociety.org>, 
Leopoldo Sanfuentes <alps at acm.org>,  Michel Bauwens 
<michel at p2pfoundation.net>,  Dania Irene Quirola Suarez 
<daniaquirolasuarez at gmail.com>, Franz Nahrada <f.nahrada at reflex.at>, 
jakob rigi <rigij at ceu.hu>

dear Quiliro,

we have decided after a meeting with p2p-f to stop publishing critiques 
and to ignore them .. everyone is under a lot of pressure and we are 
spending too much time with negative energy ...

nobody has been banned nor prevented from signing on consciously from 
the list, but after the complaints we are looking into it. James Burke 
says it's a technical issue (nobody can join) and he's looking to solve 
it, which should be very soon ..

not sure what could cause an existing member to be out, that seems to be 
a different issue, but bernardo should explain the issue to james burke

but be careful about what he says, for example, he deleted the fb 
threat, so he can deny it (we have many witnesses), as far as I know, 
he's entirely capable of removing himself,

anyway, after a decision of the p2p collective, I'm turning my attention
away from them, there are too many things to do,

Michel




-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Betreff: Re: Re: [Research] [investigacion] english version of the 
summit declaration
Datum: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 12:27:21 -0300
Von: Bernardo Gutiérrez <bernardobrasil at gmail.com>
An: willi uebelherr <willi.uebelherr at gmail.com>
Kopie (CC): Quiliro Ordóñez Baca <quiliro at congresolibre.org>,  Franz 
Nahrada <f.nahrada at reflex.at>, jakob rigi <RigiJ at ceu.hu>, xabier 
<xabier at sindominio.net>

Hello you all

Thanks, Willi, for sharing this information. Again, I don 't respond to 
P2P list, because it is close, won 't be fair.

I am quite surprised of all the accusations that Michel does, mainly in
places where we can 't respond. I understand the mood as "nervous" and
"emotional" reaction. Even, there are several misunderstandings. I am 
not doing anything that Michel thinks I am doing, just check the common 
lists. As I said before, I admire Wikileaks, so I would not have 
problems in publishing my private mails with Michel (all of them). The 
communities would have their own opinions about "wolfs", "sheeps", 
"commoners" and so. Publishing them wont help, of course. We are working 
for the commons and this kind of things don 't help.

As I see that it is an old mail, I believe that it was a part of that
stress, I won 't have in account the accusations and insults. It is part 
of the game. As a person who has been inside FLOK from September 2013 
(one of the first), and has been phisically in Quito 4 months, I have a 
lot of things for enriching the conversations. I wont do it here, 
because de FLOK report, auto critical and deep, will be published soon. 
But, any way, what is is specially complicated is this>

" promising juicy flok contracts"

In this case, I am in the same side of Michel. I was contracted by
Ecuatorian State. I have been suffered the same burocracy, the same 
stupid process. I have got paid (fev-march) few weeks ago. From the 
amount I was supposed to receive, after taxes, I got  4.100 dolars in my 
account (can send by here the prove of the payment). You have to 
disccount the São Paulo- Quito- São Paulo flight that I paid and the 200 
dolars of the visa. So, 3.000 dolars. And from that, I had to pay 
aparment, expenses etc It is not much, but the FLOK process is so 
important that I started to engage and work for the project for many 
other things, first, without being paid, from São Paulo. The second part 
of my wage... I don t really know when the f..... I will be paid. But 
probably in September. I could publish in my Facebook account or write 
to the lists, upset with that. But I does not enrich the process.

So, "juicy contracts"? wuau. I can barely get paid, so... What do you 
want to say?

The collaborative process, the participatory strategy of the FLOK, has 
not spent a dolar. It is networking, commoning, a hard work with local
communities. So, many collectives and movements that were not so
enthusiastic with the initial project (it came from the State, "top 
down" so and so) finally engaged and will take the leadership of FLOK 
now. the summit changed many things and the Ecuatorian movements and 
even politicians began to feel the potencial of the FLOK. Specially 
enthusiastic are the communities of free software (leaded by Rafael 
Bonifaz), free culture (new paper going on) and open agriculture (that 
had an amazing work of the researchers).

Xabier Barandiarán is copied in this mail.
Now that everything is in peace, would be nice to build things together

Best regards,
Bernardo