[P2P-F] Ecuador as a state form, the proposal for a Partner State...

Thu Jul 17 21:44:27 CEST 2014

I definitely see Michel's Partner State as the state becoming more
network-like and less statelike, and possibly an initial step toward
Proudhon's idea of dissolving the state's functions into the social
body.

On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 1:35 PM, Orsan <orsan1234 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Can commonification of cities and regions happen.... and then may it become
> the commonification of the State -which might meen simulateneoulsy
> dissolution of social power back into where it came from, the society?
>
> Here are some intriguining calls:
>
> Commons Josaphat
> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "l.facebook.com"
> claiming to be http://commonsjosaphat.wordpress.com/
> Let's win Barcelona:
> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "l.facebook.com"
> claiming to be
> http://snuproject.wordpress.com/2014/07/09/guanyem-commons-barcelona/
> Commune of Europe:
> MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "l.facebook.com"
> claiming to be http://www.thecommuneofeurope.org/
> .
> What if .. we call all the cities of the world to commonify and then reunion
> as one undivided humanity, from bottom up pushing city governments, parties,
> nation states to turn into direct democratic p2p non-states..
>
> The tricky point is how are you going to convince those who hold privileges
> over 'lower order', untrustworthy ordinary rank and file people. There are
> many of those elite actively benefiting from the existing power structures,
> and may be much less those who are wise and modest and who would pursue this
> goal by confronting the bad boys.. of course all of them as those of us
> outside are embedded in capitalist mode of production -the very  base the
> existing power structure is relying dialectically. So multi scale deliberate
> counter creative and civil offensive to realize the transitions is needed in
> my opinion, so assertively and openly.
>
> So one person, or network of people, might be able to choose to engage, at
> one or more level. Declaring the end goal of stateless society to be
> realized from one by empowering the grassroots; setting check and balance
> protocols in their p2p communities themselves and ensuring that those
> protocols are working; then declaring that (Zapatista like) 'we don't want
> to hold any enclosed and un-socialised power, for people and make them do
> something we believe that it is good for them; yet we will try to work with
> those who are in the State in case they accept to collaborate with us in
> re-socializing the political power. So some kind of open p2p written
> charter, like a new wiki social civil contracts are needed indeed to justify
> any close engagement with non-p2p and anti-p2p structures.
>
> Since any currently power and wealth holding elite, his/her current 'being'
> is threatened (same as the feudal aristocracy felt threatened their 'being'
> by the bourgeoisie), by mass participation in social life, anyone need to
> realize the support of that kind of mass grassroots support.
>
> If we have a clear ruling class and power structures analyses at hand,
> context by context, next to our own open and p2p check and balance
> mechanisms for the networks, and wiki charters. then engaging enemy at
> various levels, getting support of those positive, critical and sincere
> elements active in those structures (like snowden) with varying, dynamic and
> harmonizable strategies.
>
> Such strategies should be very clearly and without compromise putting back
> all the commons; including labour, creative energy, and resources, back in
> grassroots' so that the self-empowerment of people is increasingly
> guaranteed.
>
> Just continuos brain storming.. Not beliefs, so very wide open to any
> critics
>
> Orsan
>
>
> On 17 jul. 2014, at 18:44, willi uebelherr <willi.uebelherr at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Dear friends,
>
> on the P2P-blog the discussion obout our relation to the state is going on.
>
> Ecuador as a state form, the proposal for a 'Partner State', and lessons
> for future Commons Transition Strategies
> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/ecuador-as-a-state-form-the-proposal-for-a-partner-state-and-lessons-for-future-commons-transition-strategies/2014/07/10#comment-810601
>
> We can do this discussion in spanish or english. Also we can continue
> this discussion on the maillists. But like was Orsan Senalp wrote - we
> have to bring this two language spaces together.
>
> many greetings, willi
> Bogota, Colombia
>
>
> --- Quiliro wrote
>
> Great to see Michel's and Willi's great perspectives.
>
> I wonder what can be done in order to prevent the powerful from abusing
> the minorities or even the majorities in a stateless society as Michel
> states. Many times the majorities are manipulated in order to run over
> people that oppose the powerful, whether these powerful are part of the
> state or not. Other times, the powerful use violence and bureaucracy to
> exert their power over the majorities. What can we do in a stateless or
> stateful society against these abuses?
>
>
> --- my answer
>
> dear Quiliro and all,
>
> your question, i think, is the most important question. What we have to
> do for independence in our development of our life environment?
>
> Michel and Silke Helfrich think and say that we need the state as a
> partner state, as a cooperation partner. But we can see in Germany, what
> is going on. And we can see in Ecuador, what are the results of that.
>
> I give here to links to very different writings about the same situation.
>
> Dangerous practice of digital mass surveillance must be subject to
> independent checks and balances - Pillay
> http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/Media.aspx?IsMediaPage=true&LangID=E
>
> Peer to Peer (P2P) Production as the Alternative to Capitalism - A New
> Communist Horizon
> http://www.networkedlabour.net/2013/05/peer-to-peer-p2p-production-as-the-alternative-to-capitalism-a-new-communist-horizon/
>
> Navi Pillay and Jakob Rigi act on the same themes on her different
> backgrounds and her different perspektives. State or people self
> organization. But this is a pre-step in our thinking and doing.
>
> This means, that the first is that we disolve our own slavery system in
> our thinking. If we create our own perspectives and our ways for that,
> then we can cooperate with all people without to lost our orientation
> for our future.
>
> Of course, the result is that we are self-responsible for our life and
> never we can go to any institution to ask for our life basics. We have
> to do self. But never alone.
>
> Here come in the Comunas. The local life community. We break the
> primitive dualism Individual or state. As single persons we live in
> communities. This are the constitutional elements for our bigger social
> societies.
>
> State never exist. It is a virtual construction. So, why we should
> follow any stupid production of thoughts of stupid persons? I don-t
> understand, why Michel and Franz Nahrada and many other follow this
> religion.
>
> many greetings, willi
> Bogota, Colombia
>
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-- 
Kevin Carson
Senior Fellow, Karl Hess Scholar in Social Theory
Center for a Stateless Society http://c4ss.org

"You have no authority that we are bound to respect" -- John Perry Barlow
"We are legion. We never forgive. We never forget. Expect us" -- Anonymous

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