[P2P-F] an evaluation of the flok

Mon Jul 7 14:19:10 CEST 2014

dear Willi, 

> In the center we have the needs of the people. Her interest for 
> communication.

totally agree with the above,

> And if the don't like it, they never create her local 
> network and never any connection to her neighborhoods.

not totally agree with the above, since non-creation of the local network is not always the result of unwillingness. Most of the time it is oppressed and banned by the ruler or dominant forces, they either make nodes afraid and/or manipulate. One can say this is the own responsibility of  the local people. This is a sensitive issue. What would you see that there is the case of  oppression and exploitation and that avoids the formation of a local solidarity and the network?     

> Our base are the local networks. This are full functionally. They have 
> all components what they need. But in general we break the seperation 
> client/server. Only this people, they don't like to work on a 
> server/client system, they can use the local server for her needs.
> This means, that we create full symetric transport capacities. The both 
> direction, up and down, have in principal the same capacity (or 
> bandwith). This we do, because the most stable structure we have if all 
> the communication partners can act as client and server.
> Depend on the distributed structure, our principles, the local people 
> have the responsibility to organize her local network self. We help, of 
> course, we cooperate. But the decisions create always the local people.

agree that this is the way, might be good to exchange and elaborate on how to do that.. 

> On this way we are confronted with the requirements for the design, 
> construction and build our components to create our communication 
> system. And this also, we do it together. But in a bigger area. And the 
> local communities can act as regional groups, if they want.

understand the above

> The only thing for our packet transport system is to define the IP 
> header with our way to define the geografical based global IP adress. 
> The local part is totally local defined.

but not the above, what do you mean with 'packet transport system' and in general i have a bad feeling about the IPs, because of the NSA and surveillance stories now worse. What is the difference between private IP and the one you describe. (do you mean local free and public int. providers, and all IPs are used as global address book, to locate people but just for facilitating free long distance material-exchanges? like food, seeds, other livelihoods, art so on? )    

> You see, that with the geografical definition of the global adress part 
> in the IP adress all is very easy. For that, on the beginning, we look 
> for a world coordinate system with a symetrical resolution. No more. And 
> if we don't find a good way, we can use first the WC84 system. With 64 
> bits for the global adress part our resolution is more then necssary.

don't understand the above as well, i guess it is about prefect precision off the address location right, still have to read  about WC84 system you mention. still this is about long distance material exchange between networks, so peoples' Internet of Things kind of ideas? 

> You wrote:
> "What about what happens when two local horizontal networks started to 
> connect and interact? (like two different type of galaxies are clashing 
> and then merging). it is kind of essential to be able to get a clear 
> analysis on this, to see how will network movements will get on the same 
> page, like local Gezi, Occupy, hacker,15m, networks and how they will 
> encounter the netarchical ruling classes globally, while latter holding 
> on the capitalist states and operating through transnational capitalist 
> class networks and forging conscious counter and filtrating attacks on 
> the emerging new reality."
> 
> Oh my dear Orsan, i never go in the cinema and never i look TV. So, i 
> live in the reality. And in the reality, the movements are slow, because 
> they have clear physical bases.

if you are close to nature, and away from cites, yes sure the movements as other things are slower and that might even be a good thing (like slow towns movement). But the urban-local networks, network-movements, in comparison to nationally or locally bounded ones, are pretty fast. May be because they are part of another dimension of the same reality. I do not go to the cinema too, and look very little at the TV. Instead I do watch live streams from the streets, read bloggers, look at action photos, read tweets, join mumble calls and IRchats with some of the people from new movements, meet some of them in squares, talk to some of those people face to face... there i see there is a sort of new reality, or new aspect of the same reality, sounds very different then the reality you describe. These urban local networks feels like they are being build as a local network at broader geography. So like national, regional and global-local networks we have, as if the national, regional and global levels are perceived as locality. In these urban networks things and changes, as well as self learning and reflection is relatively very fast.        

> In principal, the stability grows up with the distribution of 
> self-organized systems. This we can always say and see. Following of 
> that, we are on the right way if we decentralize all our systems and 
> help the local people to extend her capacity. Based on this we create 
> our networks (the packet transport system) over the world for our 
> different task.

yes again agree with the above, yet would be good if you open up, what do you mean with the PTS, sorry may be i am the only one who do not know that? :)

> many greetings, willi
> Medellin, Colombia

greetings, orsan

> 
> 
> Am 06/07/2014 11:26, schrieb Orsan:
>> thanks Willi, I appreciate your response, though see a major problem with serious results of not thinking of we having this or being part of concrete real world, we are trying to transcend.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 6 jul. 2014, at 16:57, willi uebelherr <willi.uebelherr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Am 06/07/2014 08:24, schrieb Orsan:
>>>> ...
>>> "I think the conscious act of transforming network into meshwork (read
>>> p2p distributed) by creating all possibilities for all the noses to link
>>> up each other, as will as the core information related to that network
>>> (this I got form michel's 2005 seminal article on p2p), as well as
>>> spaces, and channels that would generate more interlocking nodes between
>>> many meshwork (acting kind of as the fellowship of the ring) is emerging
>>> as the new ethics and politics in the network movements. The direction
>>> taken is clearly towards the creation of a big global meshwork. Unity
>>> and convergence makes a new sense in this new paradigmatic multi layer
>>> matrix, from inner to individual, to inter personal and community
>>> levels, recognising the simultaneous situations of autonomy and oneness
>>> in any given time and space location."
>>> 
>>> Dear Orsan,
>>> 
>>> you start correct. mesh network as a P2P distributed network. But then
>>> you lost the way.
>>> 
>>> "Unity and convergence makes a new sense in this new paradigmatic multi
>>> layer matrix, ...". This is a very different thing. In our horizontally
>>> distributed network, based on the full connection of the elements, we
>>> have no "layer matrix", because this is a concept of vertical
>>> hierarchical systems.
>> 
>> May be in an ideally or analytically, but in the current situation there are these layers and the matrix they form. If there is a space where some people already transcended those layers and got out of the matrix, we should all go there. So what I tried to identify ontologically here is a transitory phenomenon.
>> 
>>> We have to be clear in the using of our terms. Based on this principles
>>> i wrote my proposals for NetMundial and www.1net.org. In the archive of
>>> this list i found this mails.
>> 
>> Agree, and above not thought through terms can be misleading, so I will read your proposal and try to see especially those technical solutions which can enable to address problems Arises from historically, materially and dialectically constructed human-relational problems. Which are also in transition and still have those layers needs to be overcome, from cellular to social, and cosmological.
>> 
>>> The basic step for that is the strong horizontal structure based on the
>>> local independent networks with her geografical position as the IP
>>> adress. This is the more technical view. But we have to be clear:
>>> without the technical definition based on our philosophical principles
>>> we never come to our P2P distributed network.
>> Kind of agree, but technical solution without consciousness and awareness of the social relationships being applied to, and when those technical solutions applied to social relationships are dialectically inter-connected, or integral to each other.
>> 
>>> Our communication system, The InterNet, "the Inter-connection of local
>>> Net-works", is only oriented to the IP packet transport. All others can
>>> the people define self. The coding and decoding, the streaming process,
>>> the encryption. We transport the IP packet neutral. Only the physical
>>> difference, asynchron or synchron, we use.
>>> 
>>> This is a totally flat distributed system and this also means the term
>>> P2P. Following of this clear princip we never can use any hierarchical
>>> methods in our basic network. Over that, on the application level, the
>>> people can do what the want. But this is a virtual layer and his
>>> definition depend of the people self.
>> 
>> What about what happens when two local horizontal networks started to connect and interact? (like two different type of galaxies are clashing and then merging). it is kind of essential to be able to get a clear analysis on this, to see how will network movements will get on the same page, like local Gezi, Occupy, hacker,15m, networks and how they will encounter the netarchical ruling classes globally, while latter holding on the capitalist states and operating through transnational capitalist class networks and forging conscious counter and filtrating attacks on the emerging new reality.
>> 
>>> many greetings, willi
>>> now: Medellin, Colombia
>> 
>> greetings, orsan
> 
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