[P2P-F] Maps of the colonization of p2p ?

Dante-Gabryell Monson dante.monson at gmail.com
Fri Feb 1 01:16:54 CET 2013


Thank you for this interesting thread ! :)
( on the economy of monasticism )

Could some of us see ourselves in some ways as monastics of a digital /
"post print" age ( albeit distributed / spread out ? )

and, if so, still in a stage of formation ?  with a convergence of
interdependent viable self sustaining production infrastructures still to
develop ?

Does the approach ( memes ? ) some of us use on this list differ from the
communes cited and compared with the monastic communities in that book ?

How do monastic or intentional community modes of production , governance
and property relate or differ to p2p approaches ?  Are such monastic orders
"blue" ( authoritarian ), and are intentional communities they are compared
to ( from the 60 ies, and after ? ) "green" memes
?<http://www.spiraldynamics-integral.nl/uploads/images/headers/Value_systems.jpg>
(
egalitarian ? )


If this emerges as yellow, turquoise and beyond, what would it look like ?

How have ( if they have ) old monasteries adapted to changes in memes ?

What is the level of interconnected critical diversity required to enable
viable self sustaining p2p production / governance / property systems ?

What would the relation of a p2p viable system be to space / distance ?

Is there anywhere on earth where a diversity of systems, such as documented
on p2pfoundation , appropedia, etc  already converge as to mutually self
sustain ?

What would its cost be, in terms of infrastructure development ? ( if/when
acquiring production infrastructure on the capitalist monetized markets )
And what transition dependencies does it have in relation to current (
industrial era ? ) infrastructures ?

Based on physical distance factors , what have been past conditions of a
certain form of emergence, and how would it compare with today ?

What would the maps look like, if some aspects of p2p meme development
would be considered as colonizing monastics ?
Monastics of a certain meme ? Where are such memes most represented and
interconnected ?

Is there a need for a critical mass combined with a critical diversity
within a specific geographical area and along certain levels of
interconnectedness within such potential systems ?

What would its current main development centres be ? Berlin and San
Francisco ?  or simply... the internet... and any place with high internet
connectivity and creative / information based economies ?

And if so, what do we potentially see emerging from a combination of
internet and spatial face to face dynamics ?   Did our interactions on the
internet lead to any of us converging and living together ? ( open source
ecology project maybe ? )



On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Kevin F <kev.flanagan at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Anna,
>
> Monastics also provided services to the communities of which they are
> a part. In the past the monasteries were great repositories of
> knowledge. They were not limited to scriptural works alone. In the pre
> print era scribes also produced copies of philosophical, technical and
> historical works. They provided opportunities for people to educate
> themselves and in turn those same people became stewards of that
> knowledge which was of general benefit to communities that grew up
> around the monasteries.
> Now as you say it is true that as celibate institutions they fail to
> reproduce themselves. However it can also be said that the knowledge
> of which the monasteries were caretakers contributed to the
> sustainability and in turn the re-productivity of the lay communities
> and that seeing monasteries as socially valuable in this way was one
> reason people from those communities chose to join.
> Of course this is not the only motivation to join. For some it was to
> pursue the spiritual life, for others it was to escape poverty, while
> others joined because of social or family pressure.
> One of the big rules was that monks and nuns should not own property.
> If monks or nuns were to have families things become more complicated
> as humans tend to look out for the welfare of their own before that of
> the community as a whole. One of the arguments for celibacy in the
> church is that it acts as an anti corruption measure. When Priests,
> Abbots and Nuns have families it is easy for mini dynasties to emerge
> as quite quickly it is the son of the Abbot who inherits his fathers
> prestigious and influential role. This situation is avoided when they
> are required to be celibate.
> The other advantage of a celibate community is that its members have
> more time to focus on intellectual work. When this is applied to
> technical problems, inventive and innovative solutions can be shared,
> improving the health and sustainability of the broader lay community.
> All of these dynamics change as societies become better off. Today we
> no longer depend on monasteries to preserve and reproduce important
> texts. Nor do we depend on them for education or health. None of this
> was true 500 years ago. As the quality of life improves for people
> across the globe the appeal of monastic life is waning. Everywhere
> fewer and fewer young people are taking vocations. The tables have
> turned in a way. While at one time communities depended on monasteries
>  today most monasteries depend heavily on charity. What they have to
> offer society more generally has come into question and their futures
> are indeed uncertain.
> I do not wish to romanticise the historical role of monasteries, I
> just want to point out that their social function has changed over
> time. While I agree that today these institutions have become in some
> sense parasitic my point is that it was not always so.
> What I gained from reading this paper was more from the analysis of
> incentives and motivations both of which can be applied to analysis of
> intentional communities. Also worth considering is the power of shared
> values that may be not be so strong in more secular arrangements.
>
> Regards
>
> Kevin
>
>
> On 30 January 2013 19:22, Anna Harris <anna at shsh.co.uk> wrote:
> > The element left out of this analysis is the fact that monasteries are
> > single sex establishments which do not have to cope with child rearing.
> They
> > are therefor parasitic in the sense that they live off the produce of the
> > society at large which provides them with the personnel while leaving
> them
> > free to indulge in their 'spiritual capital'.
> >
> > There is no doubt in my mind that child rearing is the most difficult and
> > undervalued profession, since it is performed in the main voluntarily by
> > untrained people out of love, and therefore does not appear to require
> any
> > specific investment. Consequently it can be ignored as in the above
> > discussion as though living in a secular socialist commune could be
> compared
> > to living in a monastery.
> >
> > I am not decrying the need for a spiritual element in helping to sustain
> > indivuals and groups. Indeed I think it is essential to bring meaning in
> the
> > present situation of imminent 'collapse of civilisation', but it needs
> to be
> > able to be interwoven into our everyday lives, not hived off into
> separate
> > cloisters which may be beneficial for the inmates but do not really
> > contribute to the sustenance of the rest of us.
> >
> > Anna
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 7:05 AM, Kevin F <kev.flanagan at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I've been reading 'The Economics of Monasticism by Nathan Smith' over
> >> the past week. He makes some interesting points in comparing the
> >> sustainability of intentional communities with that of Christian
> >> monasteries. Citing a study by Rost et al (2008) that
> >> "An average longevity of 463 years makes monasteries more durable not
> >> only than firms, but even than most states." and further suggesting
> >> possibilities as to what makes them so successful.
> >>
> >> I will add it to the wiki when I get a chance over the coming days.
> >>
> >> The Economics of Monasticism - Nathan Smith
> >>
> >> "Since their emergence in ancient times, Christian monasteries have
> >> proven to be among the most durable of all human institutions, and in
> >> the medieval centuries made enormous contributions to the emergence of
> >> Western civilization. They are organized internally on socialist
> >> lines: monks own no property and owe total obedience to the abbot,
> >> making the monastery a miniature ‘centrally planned economy.’ A
> >> puzzling contrast exists between the longevity of monasteries and the
> >> transience of secular socialist communes. This paper presents a
> >> theoretical model which shows why voluntary socialist communes might
> >> be viable despite ‘shirking’ problems, yet fail due to turnover, and
> >> how worship, which induces people with high ‘spiritual capital’ to
> >> self-select into the monastery and then grows that spiritual capital
> >> through ‘learning-by-doing,’ can solve the turnover problem and make a
> >> worship-based socialist commune—a monastery—stable. Monasticism, like
> >> the market, is a form of ‘spontaneous order,’ but unlike the market,
> >> it does not depend on third-party enforcement (e.g., by a state) to
> >> function: this explains why monasticism (unlike capitalism) was able
> >> to thrive in the anarchic Dark Ages. Monasteries, in principle and
> >> largely in practice, are a form of society based on consent of the
> >> governed, unlike liberal states which preach but do not practice
> >> consensual governance, and it is interesting to juxtapose the real,
> >> live ‘social contracts’ of the monasteries with the notional social
> >> contracts of liberal political theory."
> >>
> >> http://www.thearda.com/workingpapers/monasticism.asp
> >>
> >> --
> >>
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