Thank you for this interesting thread ! :)<div>( on the economy of monasticism )<br><div><br></div><div>Could some of us see ourselves in some ways as monastics of a digital / "post print" age ( albeit distributed / spread out ? )</div>
<div><br></div><div>and, if so, still in a stage of formation ? with a convergence of interdependent viable self sustaining production infrastructures still to develop ? </div><div><br></div><div>Does the approach ( memes ? ) some of us use on this list differ from the communes cited and compared with the monastic communities in that book ?</div>
<div><br></div><div>How do monastic or intentional community modes of production , governance and property relate or differ to p2p approaches ? Are such monastic orders "blue" ( authoritarian ), and are intentional communities they are compared to ( from the 60 ies, and after ? ) <a href="http://www.spiraldynamics-integral.nl/uploads/images/headers/Value_systems.jpg">"green" memes ?</a> ( egalitarian ? )</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>If this emerges as yellow, turquoise and beyond, what would it look like ?</div><div><br></div><div>How have ( if they have ) old monasteries adapted to changes in memes ?</div><div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
What is the level of interconnected critical diversity required to enable viable self sustaining p2p production / governance / property systems ?</div><div><br></div><div>What would the relation of a p2p viable system be to space / distance ?</div>
<div><br></div><div>Is there anywhere on earth where a diversity of systems, such as documented on p2pfoundation , appropedia, etc already converge as to mutually self sustain ? </div><div><br></div><div>What would its cost be, in terms of infrastructure development ? ( if/when acquiring production infrastructure on the capitalist monetized markets ) </div>
<div>And what transition dependencies does it have in relation to current ( industrial era ? ) infrastructures ? </div><div><br></div><div>Based on physical distance factors , what have been past conditions of a certain form of emergence, and how would it compare with today ?</div>
<div><br></div><div><div>What would the maps look like, if some aspects of p2p meme development would be considered as colonizing monastics ?</div><div>Monastics of a certain meme ? Where are such memes most represented and interconnected ?</div>
</div><div><br></div><div>Is there a need for a critical mass combined with a critical diversity within a specific geographical area and along certain levels of interconnectedness within such potential systems ?</div><div>
<br></div><div>What would its current main development centres be ? Berlin and San Francisco ? or simply... the internet... and any place with high internet connectivity and creative / information based economies ?</div>
<div><br></div><div>And if so, what do we potentially see emerging from a combination of internet and spatial face to face dynamics ? Did our interactions on the internet lead to any of us converging and living together ? ( open source ecology project maybe ? )</div>
<div><br></div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Kevin F <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kev.flanagan@gmail.com" target="_blank">kev.flanagan@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Anna,<br>
<br>
Monastics also provided services to the communities of which they are<br>
a part. In the past the monasteries were great repositories of<br>
knowledge. They were not limited to scriptural works alone. In the pre<br>
print era scribes also produced copies of philosophical, technical and<br>
historical works. They provided opportunities for people to educate<br>
themselves and in turn those same people became stewards of that<br>
knowledge which was of general benefit to communities that grew up<br>
around the monasteries.<br>
Now as you say it is true that as celibate institutions they fail to<br>
reproduce themselves. However it can also be said that the knowledge<br>
of which the monasteries were caretakers contributed to the<br>
sustainability and in turn the re-productivity of the lay communities<br>
and that seeing monasteries as socially valuable in this way was one<br>
reason people from those communities chose to join.<br>
Of course this is not the only motivation to join. For some it was to<br>
pursue the spiritual life, for others it was to escape poverty, while<br>
others joined because of social or family pressure.<br>
One of the big rules was that monks and nuns should not own property.<br>
If monks or nuns were to have families things become more complicated<br>
as humans tend to look out for the welfare of their own before that of<br>
the community as a whole. One of the arguments for celibacy in the<br>
church is that it acts as an anti corruption measure. When Priests,<br>
Abbots and Nuns have families it is easy for mini dynasties to emerge<br>
as quite quickly it is the son of the Abbot who inherits his fathers<br>
prestigious and influential role. This situation is avoided when they<br>
are required to be celibate.<br>
The other advantage of a celibate community is that its members have<br>
more time to focus on intellectual work. When this is applied to<br>
technical problems, inventive and innovative solutions can be shared,<br>
improving the health and sustainability of the broader lay community.<br>
All of these dynamics change as societies become better off. Today we<br>
no longer depend on monasteries to preserve and reproduce important<br>
texts. Nor do we depend on them for education or health. None of this<br>
was true 500 years ago. As the quality of life improves for people<br>
across the globe the appeal of monastic life is waning. Everywhere<br>
fewer and fewer young people are taking vocations. The tables have<br>
turned in a way. While at one time communities depended on monasteries<br>
today most monasteries depend heavily on charity. What they have to<br>
offer society more generally has come into question and their futures<br>
are indeed uncertain.<br>
I do not wish to romanticise the historical role of monasteries, I<br>
just want to point out that their social function has changed over<br>
time. While I agree that today these institutions have become in some<br>
sense parasitic my point is that it was not always so.<br>
What I gained from reading this paper was more from the analysis of<br>
incentives and motivations both of which can be applied to analysis of<br>
intentional communities. Also worth considering is the power of shared<br>
values that may be not be so strong in more secular arrangements.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
Kevin<br>
</font></span><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On 30 January 2013 19:22, Anna Harris <<a href="mailto:anna@shsh.co.uk">anna@shsh.co.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
> The element left out of this analysis is the fact that monasteries are<br>
> single sex establishments which do not have to cope with child rearing. They<br>
> are therefor parasitic in the sense that they live off the produce of the<br>
> society at large which provides them with the personnel while leaving them<br>
> free to indulge in their 'spiritual capital'.<br>
><br>
> There is no doubt in my mind that child rearing is the most difficult and<br>
> undervalued profession, since it is performed in the main voluntarily by<br>
> untrained people out of love, and therefore does not appear to require any<br>
> specific investment. Consequently it can be ignored as in the above<br>
> discussion as though living in a secular socialist commune could be compared<br>
> to living in a monastery.<br>
><br>
> I am not decrying the need for a spiritual element in helping to sustain<br>
> indivuals and groups. Indeed I think it is essential to bring meaning in the<br>
> present situation of imminent 'collapse of civilisation', but it needs to be<br>
> able to be interwoven into our everyday lives, not hived off into separate<br>
> cloisters which may be beneficial for the inmates but do not really<br>
> contribute to the sustenance of the rest of us.<br>
><br>
> Anna<br>
><br>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 7:05 AM, Kevin F <<a href="mailto:kev.flanagan@gmail.com">kev.flanagan@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Hello,<br>
>><br>
>> I've been reading 'The Economics of Monasticism by Nathan Smith' over<br>
>> the past week. He makes some interesting points in comparing the<br>
>> sustainability of intentional communities with that of Christian<br>
>> monasteries. Citing a study by Rost et al (2008) that<br>
>> "An average longevity of 463 years makes monasteries more durable not<br>
>> only than firms, but even than most states." and further suggesting<br>
>> possibilities as to what makes them so successful.<br>
>><br>
>> I will add it to the wiki when I get a chance over the coming days.<br>
>><br>
>> The Economics of Monasticism - Nathan Smith<br>
>><br>
>> "Since their emergence in ancient times, Christian monasteries have<br>
>> proven to be among the most durable of all human institutions, and in<br>
>> the medieval centuries made enormous contributions to the emergence of<br>
>> Western civilization. They are organized internally on socialist<br>
>> lines: monks own no property and owe total obedience to the abbot,<br>
>> making the monastery a miniature ‘centrally planned economy.’ A<br>
>> puzzling contrast exists between the longevity of monasteries and the<br>
>> transience of secular socialist communes. This paper presents a<br>
>> theoretical model which shows why voluntary socialist communes might<br>
>> be viable despite ‘shirking’ problems, yet fail due to turnover, and<br>
>> how worship, which induces people with high ‘spiritual capital’ to<br>
>> self-select into the monastery and then grows that spiritual capital<br>
>> through ‘learning-by-doing,’ can solve the turnover problem and make a<br>
>> worship-based socialist commune—a monastery—stable. Monasticism, like<br>
>> the market, is a form of ‘spontaneous order,’ but unlike the market,<br>
>> it does not depend on third-party enforcement (e.g., by a state) to<br>
>> function: this explains why monasticism (unlike capitalism) was able<br>
>> to thrive in the anarchic Dark Ages. Monasteries, in principle and<br>
>> largely in practice, are a form of society based on consent of the<br>
>> governed, unlike liberal states which preach but do not practice<br>
>> consensual governance, and it is interesting to juxtapose the real,<br>
>> live ‘social contracts’ of the monasteries with the notional social<br>
>> contracts of liberal political theory."<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="http://www.thearda.com/workingpapers/monasticism.asp" target="_blank">http://www.thearda.com/workingpapers/monasticism.asp</a><br>
>><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>