[P2P-F] Fwd: is there no p2p spirituality because there is no spirituality (heron discussion)

Mon Sep 12 11:42:42 CEST 2011

hi richard, I'm cc'ing John, in case he's interested in contributing

just one remark, how can you equate rotating positions, with a priestly
cast, i.e.

<The priestly class is diluted but still essential?>

For me this is a denial that any person can offer contributions based on
special knowledge or experience, and violates the principle of
equipotentiality,

michel

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Poor Richard <poor_richard at att.net> wrote:

> **
> (My comments are interlinear)
>
> On 9/11/2011 11:13 PM, Michel Bauwens wrote:
> <skip>
>
> *As defined by Jorge Ferrer*: *Spiritual knowing is a participatory
> process. What do I mean by "participatory"? First, "participatory" alludes
> to the fact that spiritual knowing is not objective, neutral, or merely
> cognitive.* On the contrary, spiritual knowing engages us in a connected,
> often passionate, activity that can involve not only the opening of the
> mind, but also of the body, the heart, and the soul.
>
>
> Evidence favors the position that body, mind, heart, and soul are one
> entity.  Yes, some parts of the body and brain are relatively specialized,
> but mostly below the level of the modalities mentioned. Emotion, for
> example, is based in multiple specialized areas of the brain and body.
>
>
>  Although particular spiritual events may involve only certain dimensions
> of our nature, all of them can potentially come into play in the act of
> spiritual knowing, from somatic transfiguration to the awakening of the
> heart, from erotic communion to visionary co-creation, and from
> contemplative knowing to moral insight, to mention only a few (see also
> Ferrer, 2000a, 2002).
>
>
> "somatic transfiguration", "awakening of the heart", "erotic communion"
> "visionary co-creation", "contemplative knowing"  and "moral insight" all
> exist in secular theory and practice free of any "spiritual" trappings.
> Granted, the secular, a-spiritual approach is not nearly as well known  or
> represented as the spiritual and religious counterparts. Even in the
> universities, institutes, and labs where these secular equivalents are being
> developed, some "homage" to traditional antecedents (if any exist) is often
> made in the form of retaining some legacy terminology. In the long run I
> think that practice will pass.
>
>  *Second, the participatory nature of spiritual knowing refers to the role
> that our individual consciousness plays during most spiritual and
> transpersonal events. This relation is not one of appropriation, possession,
> or passive representation of knowledge, but of communion and co-creative
> participation.*
>
>
> Despite the popular misconceptions of science, the same can be said for the
> experience of many professional and amateur scientists who work with living
> systems. It is the fact of working and interacting with people and other
> living systems in an open and sympathetic way that produces communion and
> growth, not the spiritual mumbo-jumbo.
>
>
>  *Finally, "participatory" also refers to the fundamental ontological
> predicament of human beings in relation to spiritual energies and realities.
> Human beings are - whether we know it or not - always participating in the
> self-disclosure of Spirit.* This participatory predicament is not only the
> ontological foundation of the other forms of participation, but also the
> epistemic anchor of spiritual knowledge claims and the moral source of
> responsible action.
>
>
> I cannot interpret or parse that stuff at all.
>
>
>  Spiritual phenomena involve participatory ways of knowing that are
> presential, enactive, and transformative:
>
>
> 1. Spiritual knowing is presential: Spiritual knowing is knowing by
> presence or by identity. In other words, in most spiritual events, knowing
> occurs by virtue of being.
>
>
> Granted that this is the common belief. In fact, spiritual-seeming
> phenomena may simply be presented by the unconscious part of the brain to
> the conscious part that way.
>
>
>  Spiritual knowing can be lived as the emergence of an embodied presence
>
>
> Typically this is primarily emotion and proprioceptive<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception>sensation mashed up with associative memory samplings.
>
>  pregnant with meaning
>
>
> Alternatively, an appropriate-seeming meaning associated with the internal
> experience is supplied by the brain. The actual, objective appropriateness
> of the interpretation may vary from 0-100%.
>
>
>  that transforms both self and world. Subject and object, knowing and
> being, epistemology and ontology are brought together in the very act of
> spiritual knowing.
>
>
> This is typical of the nebulous, grandiose claims of some spiritual
> apologists. It can mean much or little depending on the detail and the
> evidence provided for the particular claims.
>
>
>  2. Spiritual knowing is enactive: Following the groundbreaking work of
> Varela, Thompson, and Rosch (1991), my understanding of spiritual knowing
> embraces an enactive paradigm of cognition: Spiritual knowing is not a
> mental representation of pregiven, independent spiritual objects, but an
> enaction, the bringing forth of a world or domain of distinctions co-created
> by the different elements involved in the participatory event. Some central
> elements of spiritual participatory events include individual intentions and
> dispositions; cultural, religious, and historical horizons; archetypal and
> subtle energies; and, most importantly, a dynamic and indeterminate
> spiritual power of inexhaustible creativity.
>
>
> The same can be said of many psycho-physical practices without spiritual
> trappings, such as sports. The counter argument might be that sport which
> meets the above criteria is spiritual, but I suggest the spirituality
> inference is redundant. To settle the argument once and for all no doubt we
> must race a spiritual athlete with a non-spiritual one.
>
>
>  3. Spiritual knowing is transformative: Participatory knowing is
> transformative at least in the following two senses. First, the
> participation in a spiritual event brings forth the transformation of self
> and world. Second, a transformation of self is usually necessary to be able
> to participate in spiritual knowing, and this knowing, in turn, draws forth
> the self through its transformative process in order to make possible this
> participation. (
> http://www.datadiwan.de/SciMedNet/library/articlesN81+/N83Ferrer_part.htm)
>
>
>
> I've already noted that both science and sports are transformative. So is
> psychosis. The issue is how and why something is transformative. If
> spiritual appologists address those questions in detail I can respond in
> more detail.
>
>
>      Definition by John Heron
>
> "The parties involved in a co-creative, enactive, transformative relation
> reciprocally and dynamically shape and reshape - in and through the process
> of meeting – how they understand each other, the regard they have for each
> other, and how they act and interact in relation with each other.
>
>
> This definition is framed to apply to the central person-to-person
> relations. It can, with appropriate modifications, be applied to relations
> between ways of knowing, to relations between persons and their worlds, and,
> including and transcending all these, to the relation between persons and
> the divine.
>
>
> There is nothing particularly spiritual about any of that until the last
> word, which blasts through the flimsy ectoplasm of spirituality right into
> the presence of god and and the holy grail.
>
>
>  Person-to-person relations are central because they are a precondition
> for setting the scene for divine self-disclosure and for persons to
> participate in it. In previous epochs this precondition was met by
> teacher-disciple hierarchical relations. Today divine self-disclosure can
> manifest through person-to-person peer relations, serviced from time to time
> by temporary hierarchical initiatives rotating among the peers.
>
>
> The priestly class is diluted but still essential?
>
>
>  Person-to-person *peer* relations are central, in my view, because of the
> intimate relation between epistemic participation and political
> participation. Epistemic participation is about the participative relation
> between the knower and the known. Political participation in this context is
> to do with participative decision-making among those involved about how we
> know and what we know. If participative knowing between persons is
> consummated in fully reciprocal encounter, then co-operative
> decision-making, both about how to engage in such reciprocal knowing and
> about what it reveals, is necessary for authentic interpersonal knowing -
> the realm of the *between* where divine self-disclosure can manifest."
>
>
> Again nothing necessarily spiritual about that until the word "devine" in
> the last sentence. However, "devine" could possibly be replaced by "group",
> "communal", "higher", "further", "greater", etc.
>
>
>  *Spiritual practice: A primary ground for the practice of
> participatory-relational spirituality can be cultivated by collaborative
> peer-to-peer relations between persons engaged in fully embodied,
> multidimensional, transformative flourishing in and with their worlds.*See
> [1] <http://www.human-inquiry.com/igroup0.htm>
>
>
> Alternate version: Community-building practice: A primary ground for the
> practice of participatory-relational community building can be cultivated by
> collaborative peer-to-peer relations between persons engaged in fully
> embodied, multidimensional, transformative flourishing in and with their
> worlds.
>
> QED
>
> PR
>

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