[P2P-F] blog FEASTA/MMT/.... bk

Michel Bauwens michel at p2pfoundation.net
Sat Sep 10 19:15:49 CEST 2011 

Hi Tadit,

perhaps you could start with the general principles of MMT and in
particular, what you call its 'commons' core, and why 'p2p' oriented people
should pay attention to it?

perhaps we could use it to write a blog series introducing MMT?

Michel

On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 12:10 AM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:

> If that is the case then it was mostly likely Prof. Stephanie Kelton. At
> that I would be quite astonished if she ever actually said what you
> thought she said. The Post-Keynesian discourse can be a bit difficult to
> wrap your mind around at first. Yes, you were right to be startled by the
> possibility of the whole thing about demand side economics as defined by
> bastard Keynesianism.
>
> I have been following their blog for a number of years, and have read I
> expect most of the articles she has written in the past ten years. I hope
> that your prior contact and confusion/revulsion will allow me to work
> through these issue to your satisfaction.
>
> One of the stories that goes along with understanding the
> Post-Keynesian/MMT paradigm. To paraphrase a quip from Adolph Lowe to the
> effect that neo-classical economics likes to pretend that the economy has
> no means of control or influence strategically averting acknowledgement of
> the actual effects all effectively intentional and awareness only as it is
> convenient. In a sense as if economics was a variety of social quantum
> physics, or that the bus we are on actually has a steering wheel, brakes,
> and regulatory functions that can be changed.
>
> Ask me all of your MMT question and I will walk you through its commons
> core. Much of the validation of the countercyclical intervention to
> provide living wage jobs comes from the direct experience of the US
> Depression era government employment initiatives, WPA, CCC,and the NYA.
>
> Minsky is a major part of this discourse as well and his economic science
> is impeccable relative to the underlying scientific philosophy of science.
> Minsky's economics is not based upon any "equilibrium" based economic
> model, just analytic and inductive in the validity, applicability,
> adequacy, and reliability structure of discourse as a dialectic.
>
> Tadit
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 12:08:47 -0400, Michel Bauwens
> <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
>
> > It was a blond woman from the uni of missouri and she seemed quite smart
> > and
> > central to the core group ..
> >
> > My question was very clear asking to confirm whether they really believed
> > that lower taxation directly related to higher economic activity and vice
> > versa ..
> >
> > As for Robert remarks on backward thinking ... you can't compare the
> > description of an ideal utopian system, with little chance of being
> > implemented in the near future, with the classic debates on the good use
> > of
> > taxation .. that's called 'current thinking' ...
> >
> > Within the current context and power relations, progressive taxation and
> > productive public investment would still be miles ahead of current
> > neoliberal austerisizing
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 7:31 PM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Michael, I assure that that depiction of MMT is not accurate at all. If
> >> you have a link to some of that discussion, I can be more specific. The
> >> summary was actually radically wrong relative to MMT and functional
> >> fiscal
> >> policies. Taxation at this point is primarily a means of controlling the
> >> accumulation of wealth withing specific income groups, and of course
> >> accelerating the incomes for other economic profiles. It has no bearing
> >> on
> >> funding fiscal policies at all. The FEASTA people have been generally
> >> fairly good relative to the rest of the folks promoting community
> >> currencies, and that can be misleading because the level of economic
> >> literacy among community currency advocates is generally very low, which
> >> makes it usually a zone the less well informed promote economic
> >> illiteracy. If I had a name of one of the presenters or a name of the
> >> association or?, I could trace back to the people at the Univ. of
> >> Missouri
> >> at Kansas City to see who those people were. From what you have
> >> described
> >> someone or some group seems to be promoting dys-information. This a long
> >> term pattern whereby pop-level "economics" speaker are used to confuse
> >> any
> >> discourse or interest toward monetary reform. Perhaps MMT in a nutshell
> >> would be useful topic. I've done a two flyer set on a presentation of
> >> MMT.
> >>
> >> The first flyer is at http://www.economics.arawakcity.org/node/674
> >>
> >> The second flyer is at http://www.economics.arawakcity.org/node/675
> >>
> >> I could digest this down to even simpler terms and a shorter length.
> >>
> >> and so we meander, Tadit Anderson
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 03:33:08 -0400, Michel Bauwens
> >> <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> > hi Tadit,
> >> >
> >> > I checked your work through Google ... interesting!
> >> >
> >> > you may want to answer this, perhaps a misunderstanding of MMT on my
> >> part
> >> > ...
> >> >
> >> > earlier this year, I attented a Modern Monetary Theory lecture in
> >> Dublin,
> >> > after some enthusiastic promptings of FEASTA members ..
> >> >
> >> > however, I came out less than enthusiastic ..
> >> >
> >> > the reason is the following, one of the ladies who gave the lecture,
> >> > gave an
> >> > intro with the main principles of MMT, and one of the rules sounds
> >> really
> >> > simplistic supply-side to me
> >> >
> >> > she said, lower taxes, and the economy grows, higher taxes, and the
> >> > economy
> >> > slows down ...
> >> >
> >> > Disbelieving I asked a question on this, and she confirmed, and this
> >> > pretty
> >> > much discredits MMT for me,
> >> >
> >> > Michel
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 6:27 PM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Michael, this is the link to Bill Mitchell's Billy Blog site and the
> >> >> first
> >> >> segment of 7 in total.
> >> >>
> >> >> http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=6122
> >> >>
> >> >>  Mitchell is one of the top authorities on modern monetary economics
> >> >> which
> >> >> is the discourse which has applied what was learned from legitimate
> >> >> interpretations of Keynes and of the demand side economics of the
> >> WPA,
> >> >> CCC, and NYA as progressive (U.S.) responses to the 20th century
> >> Great
> >> >> Depression. Mitchell covers a list of "progressive" nominal
> >> >> economists/establishments in the successive entries. L. Randall Wray
> >> of
> >> >> the Univ. of Missouri Kansas City Econ. Dept has made similar
> >> statements
> >> >> which would take me a bit longer to produce. The core difference is
> >> >> between the economic assumptions being applied. The New Economic
> >> >> Perspectives from Kansas City blog has a treasure trove of resources
> >> >> both
> >> >> in the current primer review and of other stand alone materials. It
> >> may
> >> >> require a bit of translation. Mitchell is at the top of his class in
> >> >> terms
> >> >> of modern monetary economics and as a perspective it has been one of
> >> the
> >> >> few opposing perspectives relative the well funded deficit terrorism
> >> >> campaigns. Some of the material may seem counter-intuitive, and it is
> >> >> based upon in part how central banking actually operates currently,
> >> only
> >> >> how those principles can serve a more public and more social agenda.
> >> The
> >> >> counter-intuitive part derives from the neo-classical framing which
> >> has
> >> >> dominated the field for decades if not longer. Ie, by its
> >> familiarity,
> >> >> the
> >> >> neo-classical framing seems correct when it is not actually, and
> >> serves
> >> >> to
> >> >> contain genuine progressive initiatives within a neo-classical box of
> >> >> assumptions. On a related topic, what is known as Jevons's Paradox is
> >> >> often applied within ecological and environmental circles to "prove"
> >> the
> >> >> futility of progressive energy measures and energy efficient
> >> technology,
> >> >> ends up being paradoxical only within the neo-classical set of
> >> >> assumptions.
> >> >>
> >> >> as we go, Tadit
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:49:51 -0400, Michel Bauwens
> >> >> <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > thanks, do you have a link to the baker critique you mention below?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Michel
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 4:59 PM, <ideasinc at ee.net> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Y'all, Baker tends to have a reputation of being strong on the
> >> >> rhetoric
> >> >> >> but very weak on the actual economics side of his material. It has
> >> >> been
> >> >> >> demonstrated that his economic assumptions are neo-liberal in
> >> their
> >> >> >> substance. Though this might be an interesting foray at one
> >> level, if
> >> >> >> done
> >> >> >> in a less than serious fashion it is likely to promote economic
> >> >> >> illiteracy. This may seem harsh, and buying into the
> >> >> >> neo-liberal/neo-classical framing of our situation cuts off even
> >> >> >> imagining
> >> >> >> informed fiscal options. I come from primarily a post-Keynesian
> >> >> >> macro-economics and functional finance perspective, and this sits
> >> >> well
> >> >> >> with my 20 plus years of being active in community centered
> >> economic
> >> >> >> activism, from entrepreneurship development, to being treasurer of
> >> >> two
> >> >> >> different cooperatives, to being downstream of fraud perpetrated
> >> >> under a
> >> >> >> false flag of left "progressiv-ism," and other investments
> >> regarding.
> >> >> >> Just
> >> >> >> finished a series of essays by Bill Mitchell which included a
> >> >> critique
> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> Dean Baker's economics, entitled "With Friends, Like These..."
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Tadit Anderson, Re-Imagining Economics
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 01:50:04 -0400, Michel Bauwens
> >> >> >> <michel at p2pfoundation.net> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> http://deanbaker.net/images/stories/documents/End-of-Loser-Liberalism.pdf
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Hi Kevin, perhaps you'd find chapter 10 interesting, and even
> >> >> chapter
> >> >> >> 11,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > commentary always appreciated if you have time,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Michel
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
> >> >> >> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> >>
> >> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
> >> >> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
> >> >> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
> >> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
> >> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
> >>
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> P2P Foundation - Mailing list
> http://www.p2pfoundation.net
> https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation
>



-- 
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: https://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/p2p-foundation/attachments/20110911/849f4a2d/attachment.htm

More information about the P2P-Foundation mailing list