Hi Tadit,<br><br>perhaps you could start with the general principles of MMT and in particular, what you call its 'commons' core, and why 'p2p' oriented people should pay attention to it?<br><br>perhaps we could use it to write a blog series introducing MMT?<br>
<br>Michel<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 12:10 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
If that is the case then it was mostly likely Prof. Stephanie Kelton. At<br>
that I would be quite astonished if she ever actually said what you<br>
thought she said. The Post-Keynesian discourse can be a bit difficult to<br>
wrap your mind around at first. Yes, you were right to be startled by the<br>
possibility of the whole thing about demand side economics as defined by<br>
bastard Keynesianism.<br>
<br>
I have been following their blog for a number of years, and have read I<br>
expect most of the articles she has written in the past ten years. I hope<br>
that your prior contact and confusion/revulsion will allow me to work<br>
through these issue to your satisfaction.<br>
<br>
One of the stories that goes along with understanding the<br>
Post-Keynesian/MMT paradigm. To paraphrase a quip from Adolph Lowe to the<br>
effect that neo-classical economics likes to pretend that the economy has<br>
no means of control or influence strategically averting acknowledgement of<br>
the actual effects all effectively intentional and awareness only as it is<br>
convenient. In a sense as if economics was a variety of social quantum<br>
physics, or that the bus we are on actually has a steering wheel, brakes,<br>
and regulatory functions that can be changed.<br>
<br>
Ask me all of your MMT question and I will walk you through its commons<br>
core. Much of the validation of the countercyclical intervention to<br>
provide living wage jobs comes from the direct experience of the US<br>
Depression era government employment initiatives, WPA, CCC,and the NYA.<br>
<br>
Minsky is a major part of this discourse as well and his economic science<br>
is impeccable relative to the underlying scientific philosophy of science.<br>
Minsky's economics is not based upon any "equilibrium" based economic<br>
model, just analytic and inductive in the validity, applicability,<br>
adequacy, and reliability structure of discourse as a dialectic.<br>
<br>
Tadit<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 12:08:47 -0400, Michel Bauwens<br>
<<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> It was a blond woman from the uni of missouri and she seemed quite smart<br>
> and<br>
> central to the core group ..<br>
><br>
> My question was very clear asking to confirm whether they really believed<br>
> that lower taxation directly related to higher economic activity and vice<br>
> versa ..<br>
><br>
> As for Robert remarks on backward thinking ... you can't compare the<br>
> description of an ideal utopian system, with little chance of being<br>
> implemented in the near future, with the classic debates on the good use<br>
> of<br>
> taxation .. that's called 'current thinking' ...<br>
><br>
> Within the current context and power relations, progressive taxation and<br>
> productive public investment would still be miles ahead of current<br>
> neoliberal austerisizing<br>
><br>
> On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 7:31 PM, <<a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Michael, I assure that that depiction of MMT is not accurate at all. If<br>
>> you have a link to some of that discussion, I can be more specific. The<br>
>> summary was actually radically wrong relative to MMT and functional<br>
>> fiscal<br>
>> policies. Taxation at this point is primarily a means of controlling the<br>
>> accumulation of wealth withing specific income groups, and of course<br>
>> accelerating the incomes for other economic profiles. It has no bearing<br>
>> on<br>
>> funding fiscal policies at all. The FEASTA people have been generally<br>
>> fairly good relative to the rest of the folks promoting community<br>
>> currencies, and that can be misleading because the level of economic<br>
>> literacy among community currency advocates is generally very low, which<br>
>> makes it usually a zone the less well informed promote economic<br>
>> illiteracy. If I had a name of one of the presenters or a name of the<br>
>> association or?, I could trace back to the people at the Univ. of<br>
>> Missouri<br>
>> at Kansas City to see who those people were. From what you have<br>
>> described<br>
>> someone or some group seems to be promoting dys-information. This a long<br>
>> term pattern whereby pop-level "economics" speaker are used to confuse<br>
>> any<br>
>> discourse or interest toward monetary reform. Perhaps MMT in a nutshell<br>
>> would be useful topic. I've done a two flyer set on a presentation of<br>
>> MMT.<br>
>><br>
>> The first flyer is at <a href="http://www.economics.arawakcity.org/node/674" target="_blank">http://www.economics.arawakcity.org/node/674</a><br>
>><br>
>> The second flyer is at <a href="http://www.economics.arawakcity.org/node/675" target="_blank">http://www.economics.arawakcity.org/node/675</a><br>
>><br>
>> I could digest this down to even simpler terms and a shorter length.<br>
>><br>
>> and so we meander, Tadit Anderson<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Sat, 10 Sep 2011 03:33:08 -0400, Michel Bauwens<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> > hi Tadit,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I checked your work through Google ... interesting!<br>
>> ><br>
>> > you may want to answer this, perhaps a misunderstanding of MMT on my<br>
>> part<br>
>> > ...<br>
>> ><br>
>> > earlier this year, I attented a Modern Monetary Theory lecture in<br>
>> Dublin,<br>
>> > after some enthusiastic promptings of FEASTA members ..<br>
>> ><br>
>> > however, I came out less than enthusiastic ..<br>
>> ><br>
>> > the reason is the following, one of the ladies who gave the lecture,<br>
>> > gave an<br>
>> > intro with the main principles of MMT, and one of the rules sounds<br>
>> really<br>
>> > simplistic supply-side to me<br>
>> ><br>
>> > she said, lower taxes, and the economy grows, higher taxes, and the<br>
>> > economy<br>
>> > slows down ...<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Disbelieving I asked a question on this, and she confirmed, and this<br>
>> > pretty<br>
>> > much discredits MMT for me,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Michel<br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 6:27 PM, <<a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> >> Michael, this is the link to Bill Mitchell's Billy Blog site and the<br>
>> >> first<br>
>> >> segment of 7 in total.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> <a href="http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=6122" target="_blank">http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=6122</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> �Mitchell is one of the top authorities on modern monetary economics<br>
>> >> which<br>
>> >> is the discourse which has applied what was learned from legitimate<br>
>> >> interpretations of Keynes and of the demand side economics of the<br>
>> WPA,<br>
>> >> CCC, and NYA as progressive (U.S.) responses to the 20th century<br>
>> Great<br>
>> >> Depression. Mitchell covers a list of "progressive" nominal<br>
>> >> economists/establishments in the successive entries. L. Randall Wray<br>
>> of<br>
>> >> the Univ. of Missouri Kansas City Econ. Dept has made similar<br>
>> statements<br>
>> >> which would take me a bit longer to produce. The core difference is<br>
>> >> between the economic assumptions being applied. The New Economic<br>
>> >> Perspectives from Kansas City blog has a treasure trove of resources<br>
>> >> both<br>
>> >> in the current primer review and of other stand alone materials. It<br>
>> may<br>
>> >> require a bit of translation. Mitchell is at the top of his class in<br>
>> >> terms<br>
>> >> of modern monetary economics and as a perspective it has been one of<br>
>> the<br>
>> >> few opposing perspectives relative the well funded deficit terrorism<br>
>> >> campaigns. Some of the material may seem counter-intuitive, and it is<br>
>> >> based upon in part how central banking actually operates currently,<br>
>> only<br>
>> >> how those principles can serve a more public and more social agenda.<br>
>> The<br>
>> >> counter-intuitive part derives from the neo-classical framing which<br>
>> has<br>
>> >> dominated the field for decades if not longer. Ie, by its<br>
>> familiarity,<br>
>> >> the<br>
>> >> neo-classical framing seems correct when it is not actually, and<br>
>> serves<br>
>> >> to<br>
>> >> contain genuine progressive initiatives within a neo-classical box of<br>
>> >> assumptions. On a related topic, what is known as Jevons's Paradox is<br>
>> >> often applied within ecological and environmental circles to "prove"<br>
>> the<br>
>> >> futility of progressive energy measures and energy efficient<br>
>> technology,<br>
>> >> ends up being paradoxical only within the neo-classical set of<br>
>> >> assumptions.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> as we go, Tadit<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 06:49:51 -0400, Michel Bauwens<br>
>> >> <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> > thanks, do you have a link to the baker critique you mention below?<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Michel<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 4:59 PM, <<a href="mailto:ideasinc@ee.net">ideasinc@ee.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> >> Y'all, Baker tends to have a reputation of being strong on the<br>
>> >> rhetoric<br>
>> >> >> but very weak on the actual economics side of his material. It has<br>
>> >> been<br>
>> >> >> demonstrated that his economic assumptions are neo-liberal in<br>
>> their<br>
>> >> >> substance. Though this might be an interesting foray at one<br>
>> level, if<br>
>> >> >> done<br>
>> >> >> in a less than serious fashion it is likely to promote economic<br>
>> >> >> illiteracy. This may seem harsh, and buying into the<br>
>> >> >> neo-liberal/neo-classical framing of our situation cuts off even<br>
>> >> >> imagining<br>
>> >> >> informed fiscal options. I come from primarily a post-Keynesian<br>
>> >> >> macro-economics and functional finance perspective, and this sits<br>
>> >> well<br>
>> >> >> with my 20 plus years of being active in community centered<br>
>> economic<br>
>> >> >> activism, from entrepreneurship development, to being treasurer of<br>
>> >> two<br>
>> >> >> different cooperatives, to being downstream of fraud perpetrated<br>
>> >> under a<br>
>> >> >> false flag of left "progressiv-ism," and other investments<br>
>> regarding.<br>
>> >> >> Just<br>
>> >> >> finished a series of essays by Bill Mitchell which included a<br>
>> >> critique<br>
>> >> >> of<br>
>> >> >> Dean Baker's economics, entitled "With Friends, Like These..."<br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> Tadit Anderson, Re-Imagining Economics<br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> On Wed, 07 Sep 2011 01:50:04 -0400, Michel Bauwens<br>
>> >> >> <<a href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net">michel@p2pfoundation.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> <a href="http://deanbaker.net/images/stories/documents/End-of-Loser-Liberalism.pdf" target="_blank">http://deanbaker.net/images/stories/documents/End-of-Loser-Liberalism.pdf</a><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > Hi Kevin, perhaps you'd find chapter 10 interesting, and even<br>
>> >> chapter<br>
>> >> >> 11,<br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > commentary always appreciated if you have time,<br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > Michel<br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>
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>> >> >><br>
>> <a href="https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation" target="_blank">https://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation</a><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> P2P Foundation - Mailing list<br>
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>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
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