[P2P-F] Fw: Info

Sun Oct 23 20:56:34 CEST 2011

thanks .. by the way, where do you live?

in the Berkeley now,

Michel

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net> wrote:

>   Of course there’s distrust and media compounds it. And that’s what I
> suggested-closely defined (but very significant) issues. There’s a huge
> opportunity here and now, while both groups stay self-contained in their
> fantasies of utopia.
>
>  *From:* Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 23, 2011 9:49 AM
> *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
>
> hi Natalie,
>
> concerning the ows / tea party post,
>
> I think there is a strong residual distrust and opposition between people
> on the left and what the perceive as a dangerous plutocratic movement that
> is very related in social dynamics with fascism (declining middle classes
> blaming those even more below them). Some of this may be overcome through
> real-life dialogue.
>
> At #ows, there are people who say they are sympathetic to the Tea Party at
> the core of the occupation, such as Devin, but also many more Tea Partiers
> angrily denouncing the occupation as a communist plot ... in general, Tea
> Party identified republicans are totally opposed to what ows stands for ...
> though I'm guessing that with people like ron paul, agreement may be
> possible on very closely defined issues ...
>
> Michel
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net>wrote:
>
>>   Thank you for a civil reply which I probably will respond to at some
>> point. This discussion has been unpleasant and unproductive. I’m very
>> interested in P2P posts re new currencies and social/political organization
>> and I’m sorry I popped in and wasted time. Suffice it to say-I’ve been
>> reading voraciously both in the academic and personal venues for approx 50
>> years, so I’m guessing you guessed wrong.
>> Please weigh in on why no one responded to my mail re ZeroHedge’s post on
>> OWS & Tea Party agreement on certain critical issues. I understand social &
>> certain econ view keep these groups at odds, but there is a large center
>> overlap. Why should they not recognize this and join forces?
>>
>>  *From:* Michel Bauwens <michel at p2pfoundation.net>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM
>>   *To:* P2P Foundation mailing list <p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
>>
>>   Hi Nalatie,
>>
>> I respect that you are finished with the subject for now, and that there
>> is merit in the argument that the Europeans didn't invent warfare and
>> oppression.
>>
>> Nevertheless, I think you underestimate the scale of this near genocide,
>> and how it was driven also in large part by capitalist dynamics which were
>> historically different. In most other civilisations, there was place for
>> pastoral people's and while the rulers changed in tr*ibuta*ry systems,
>> the farmers were usually kept in place.
>>
>> Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were possible; the
>> Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim wiped out
>> North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated in the
>> new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as well,
>> but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not
>> seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated
>> blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and
>> genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human oppression.
>>
>> Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but believe me, I'm
>> guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The differences do not
>> proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient amongst these
>> sometimes harsh discussions.
>>
>> Michel
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <10natalie at cox.net>wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I mentioned
>>> earlier-people
>>> live in their own times. It's the 21st century and there is no vacant
>>> land
>>> left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US citizens or those from
>>> Central
>>> America to move in and "homestead"
>>> The European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated each
>>> other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th & 18th
>>> centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains wars when
>>> growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got involved. There
>>> were
>>> also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers. I'm finished with
>>> this
>>> subject mp READ
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: mp
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:27 AM
>>> To: p2p-foundation at lists.ourproject.org
>>> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
>>>
>>>
>>> borders? Thought you wanted them polices/militarized, whereas Kevin
>>> argues they should be open?
>>>
>>> On 22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:
>>> > Agreed-that was easy.
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: Kevin Carson
>>> > Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM
>>> > To: P2P Foundation mailing list
>>> > Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<10natalie at cox.net>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >> Going back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of
>>> >> interplay
>>> >> among various groups of both tribes and migrating Europeans (subgroup
>>> >> religions) at a time when communication/transportation and historical
>>> >> knowledge re different civilizations was quite wanting compared to
>>> today.
>>> >> I
>>> >> already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths. The
>>> >> interactions
>>> >> were very diverse and many mostly local until the mid 19th Century
>>> (Big
>>> >> exception-French&  Indian War) Spanish, French&  English migrants
>>> >> interacted
>>> >> very differently with the tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come
>>> about
>>> >> when economic&  political forces join hands.
>>> >
>>> > Actually, I don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead
>>> > vacant land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis.
>>> > What I was responding to was your suggestion that the common property
>>> > of nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds,
>>> > wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to
>>> > homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need
>>> > (the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical
>>> > exploitation of the land.  The natives, in general, were usually
>>> > amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't actually using --
>>> > I don't think they had a collective right to exclude people from using
>>> > vacant land they weren't using themselves, any more than native
>>> > citizens today have a collective ownership over land that a Mexican
>>> > national might like to move onto.
>>> >
>>> >> As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in trouble with my
>>> Hard
>>> >> Left
>>> >> friends when I side with the young Hispanic girls who don't care about
>>> >> school,  get pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls
>>> >> value
>>> >> family and love more than future prospects of good jobs&  I think
>>> that's
>>> >> fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile Detention center for a couple of
>>> years&
>>> >> understand the problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.
>>> >
>>> > I consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone
>>> > would get bent out of shape by that.  Anyone who wants to bully girls
>>> > like that into having abortions against their own judgment or
>>> > inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's dictum:  the
>>> > world would be a better place if everybody smoked a joint every day
>>> > and minded their own goddamned business.
>>> >
>>>
>>> --
>>> NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone - 'cause I like birds...
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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