thanks .. by the way, where do you live?<br><br>in the Berkeley now,<br><br>Michel<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Natalie Golovin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net">10natalie@cox.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
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<div>Of course there’s distrust and media compounds it. And that’s what I
suggested-closely defined (but very significant) issues. There’s a huge
opportunity here and now, while both groups stay self-contained in their
fantasies of utopia.</div>
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<div><b>From:</b> <a title="michel@p2pfoundation.net" href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">Michel Bauwens</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 23, 2011 9:49 AM</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">P2P Foundation mailing
list</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info</div></div></div></div></div>
<div> </div></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">hi
Natalie,<br><br>concerning the ows / tea party post,<br><br>I think there is a
strong residual distrust and opposition between people on the left and what the
perceive as a dangerous plutocratic movement that is very related in social
dynamics with fascism (declining middle classes blaming those even more below
them). Some of this may be overcome through real-life dialogue. <br><br>At #ows,
there are people who say they are sympathetic to the Tea Party at the core of
the occupation, such as Devin, but also many more Tea Partiers angrily
denouncing the occupation as a communist plot ... in general, Tea Party
identified republicans are totally opposed to what ows stands for ... though I'm
guessing that with people like ron paul, agreement may be possible on very
closely defined issues ...<br><br>Michel<br><br><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Natalie Golovin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net" target="_blank">10natalie@cox.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
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<div>Thank you for a civil reply which I probably will respond to at some
point. This discussion has been unpleasant and unproductive. I’m very
interested in P2P posts re new currencies and social/political organization
and I’m sorry I popped in and wasted time. Suffice it to say-I’ve been reading
voraciously both in the academic and personal venues for approx 50 years, so
I’m guessing you guessed wrong.</div>
<div>Please weigh in on why no one responded to my mail re ZeroHedge’s post on
OWS & Tea Party agreement on certain critical issues. I understand social
& certain econ view keep these groups at odds, but there is a large center
overlap. Why should they not recognize this and join forces?</div>
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<div><b>From:</b> <a title="michel@p2pfoundation.net" href="mailto:michel@p2pfoundation.net" target="_blank">Michel Bauwens</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 23, 2011 7:56 AM</div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">P2P Foundation
mailing list</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [P2P-F] Fw: Info</div></div></div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
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<div>Hi Nalatie,<br><br>I respect that you are finished with the
subject for now, and that there is merit in the argument that the Europeans
didn't invent warfare and oppression.<br><br>Nevertheless, I think you
underestimate the scale of this near genocide, and how it was driven also in
large part by capitalist dynamics which were historically different. In most
other civilisations, there was place for pastoral people's and while the
rulers changed in tr<b>ibuta</b>ry systems, the farmers were usually kept in
place.<br><br>Even within the capitalist dynamics, other options were
possible; the Natives in Spanish lands, subject to the same diseases you claim
wiped out North American natives, in fact largely survived and were integrated
in the new model. The Hispanic ruling classes were undoubtedly very cruel as
well, but not on the same genocidal scale as the anglo-saxons. You also do not
seem cognizant of how disease was used willfully by the whites (contaminated
blankets as technique of genocide). In other words, the scale of cruelty and
genocide matters, even if placed in a general history of human
oppression.<br><br>Also you may find mp aggressive in his accusations, but
believe me, I'm guessing he has read a lot more books than you. The
differences do not proceed from a lack of reading. Thanks for being patient
amongst these sometimes harsh discussions.<br><br>Michel<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Natalie Golovin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net" target="_blank">10natalie@cox.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">I agree with Kevin completely in theory, but as I
mentioned earlier-people<br>live in their own times. It's the 21st century
and there is no vacant land<br>left in the US. BTW Mexico doesn't allow US
citizens or those from Central<br>America to move in and "homestead"<br>The
European Tribes treated the Natives no worse than they treated
each<br>other. What started off as involuntary manslaughter in the 17th
& 18th<br>centuries turned into voluntary manslaughter during the plains
wars when<br>growing Federal power & powerful economic interests got
involved. There were<br>also violent hostilities among ranchers and farmers.
I'm finished with this<br>subject mp READ<br>
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: mp<br>Sent: Sunday, October
23, 2011 6:27 AM<br>To: <a href="mailto:p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org" target="_blank">p2p-foundation@lists.ourproject.org</a><br>Subject: Re:
[P2P-F] Fw: Info<br><br><br>borders? Thought you wanted them
polices/militarized, whereas Kevin<br>argues they should be open?<br><br>On
22/10/11 02:58, Natalie Golovin wrote:<br>> Agreed-that was
easy.<br>><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: Kevin
Carson<br>> Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 6:34 PM<br>> To: P2P
Foundation mailing list<br>> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fw:
Info<br>><br>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Natalie Golovin<<a href="mailto:10natalie@cox.net" target="_blank">10natalie@cox.net</a>><br>> wrote:<br>>> Going
back to Native Populations..We're talking about 250 years of<br>>>
interplay<br>>> among various groups of both tribes and migrating
Europeans (subgroup<br>>> religions) at a time when
communication/transportation and historical<br>>> knowledge re
different civilizations was quite wanting compared to today.<br>>>
I<br>>> already mentioned disease accounted for most of the deaths.
The<br>>> interactions<br>>> were very diverse and many mostly
local until the mid 19th Century (Big<br>>>
exception-French& Indian War) Spanish, French& English
migrants<br>>> interacted<br>>> very differently with the
tribes. In general, flagrant abuses come about<br>>> when
economic& political forces join hands.<br>><br>> Actually, I
don't dispute the right of European settlers to homestead<br>> vacant
land that actually wasn't being used, on an individual basis.<br>> What I
was responding to was your suggestion that the common property<br>> of
nomads, homesteaded by the act of using it as hunting grounds,<br>>
wasn't "real property" and that European settlers were entitled to<br>>
homestead land in such collective use on the grounds either of need<br>>
(the overpopulated cities of Europe) or more efficient technical<br>>
exploitation of the land. The natives, in general, were
usually<br>> amenable to foreign settlements on land they weren't
actually using --<br>> I don't think they had a collective right to
exclude people from using<br>> vacant land they weren't using themselves,
any more than native<br>> citizens today have a collective ownership over
land that a Mexican<br>> national might like to move
onto.<br>><br>>> As to "White Supremacy"-Suffice it to say I get in
trouble with my Hard<br>>> Left<br>>> friends when I side with
the young Hispanic girls who don't care about<br>>> school, get
pregnant in early teens and refuse abortion. These girls<br>>>
value<br>>> family and love more than future prospects of good
jobs& I think that's<br>>> fine. BTW I worked at a Juvenile
Detention center for a couple of years&<br>>> understand the
problems of growing up poor in rough neighborhoods.<br>><br>> I
consider myself pretty hard left, and I can't imagine why anyone<br>>
would get bent out of shape by that. Anyone who wants to bully
girls<br>> like that into having abortions against their own judgment
or<br>> inclination seriously needs to consider Willie Nelson's
dictum: the<br>> world would be a better place if everybody smoked
a joint every day<br>> and minded their own goddamned
business.<br>><br><br>--<br>NOT sent from a flippin' "smart"phone -
'cause I like
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