[P2P-F] Farewell (was: Re: PM: Doing damage)

[Michel Bauwens]

needless to say Stefan, I'm really disappointed by the personal attitude
that shines true in this reply of yours, and the refusal for a normal
conversation with facts, arguments (feelings are also okay, but loading shit
on another person is not okay).

So let me be clear that I'm not responding to you, as I have no desire to
continue this type of exchange, but for the community. Since I could only
discern one cogent counter-argument, here is my reply to that one:

* <in fact all peer production projects *are* self-sustaining. That
is part of their positive feedback cycle. Probably you are talking of
something else.>

Peer production projects can be collectively sustainable by relying on a
continuous stream on voluntary contributions, but they do presently not
sustain their members, who are usually paid by for-profit companies or as
freelancers on a marketplace ... i.e. the commons is not independently
sustainable for its members; this is why I propose that commoners/peer
producers create their own structures for a more autonomous cycle of
reproduction.



On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 6:10 PM, Stefan Merten <smerten at oekonux.de> wrote:

> Hi Michel!
>
> Finally I got through to your mail. Frankly I'm surprised how big the
> gap actually is between you and anybody else I know. I hope that your
> contributions to Oekonux did not bend you too much...
>
> Last month (30 days ago) Michel Bauwens wrote:
> > It seems  neither you nor Jacob understands the difference between
> > commodification and self-sustaining commons, oh well ..
>
> Well, in fact all peer production projects *are* self-sustaining. That
> is part of their positive feedback cycle. Probably you are talking of
> something else. Never mind...
>
> > right now the (free software) commons that you so enthusiastically
> support
> > exclusively survive through commodified labour and wages;
>
> Which is obviously wrong. But I understand that you *need* to ignore
> facts to push your program through.
>
> The only thing I'm *really* interested in: Why do you feel the need to
> push through such esoteric stuff? I know these guys talking about
> money trickery since 20 years. Little has changed since then -
> especially not there presumptuous behavior and their ignorance of
> reality. I unterstand that they invaded your project - as they do with
> every project they can get hold of. Did you welcome them because their
> presumptuous behavior kept your project alive?
>
> > there are better
> > ways in which income is not tied to work;
>
> Indeed. For instance commons-based peer production - unless you mean
> income as dollars. In fact exchange based systems are historically the
> only ones which tie income to labor explicitly - this is there life
> blood.
>
> > I'm not an anarchist, much more of a marxist, therefore, like Marx,
>
> What I understand is that you have no idea of either of these leftist
> streams. So you may be interested in learning that Marx refused to be
> called a Marxist.
>
> > but it is perfectly okay to support capitalist forms of money exclusively
> as
> > you do,
>
> If I want to abolish all forms of money by making it superfluous then
> I support money. Frankly that's too much ignorance of reality for me
> to understand...
>
>
> In a way I'm really sad. I really had hoped that someday you would
> return to a common basis but in fact you dig deeper and deeper into
> your idealist (which is BTW the opposite of Marx *and* Marxists) and
> often enough esoteric stuff.
>
> Well, let me say that I appreciate the part of my life I shared with
> you. It was a pleasure to me. However, finally I quit hoping that
> these days can come back. I can only hope that your confusion is not
> triggered by personal problems which let you look for an escape from
> reality.
>
>
>                                                Grüße
>
>                                                Stefan
>



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